Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Wed Dec 2 14:54:05 UTC 2020

I second what Scott said.  Julia is not "fringe" and I am thinking that -
too late probably - that is a Very Good Thing (tm)

Apart from that, Rust was described in "Nature".  You cannot get more
mainstream than that.

Ciao

Marco

PS Me, I am checking out PL/I

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:52 AM Scott McKay <swmckay at gmail.com> wrote:

> I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe
> language (*),
> use a *good* fringe language.
>
> (*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more.
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels <bobcassels at netscape.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Scott,
>>
>> Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function
>> dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways
>> (better type system, package system, better compilation model,
>> cross-language integration).
>>
>> It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active,
>> growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting
>> edge).
>>
>> If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the
>> smart cool kids are.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmckay at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new
>> ground,
>> and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro
>> system
>> can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its
>> core language.
>>
>> Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction.
>>
>> —S
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, Daniel.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say!
>>>
>>> Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the
>>> students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme
>>> will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over
>>> algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two
>>> thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :)
>>>
>>> I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are
>>> considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs
>>> put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is
>>> because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet
>>> powerful new music DSL.
>>>
>>> Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet
>>> powerful language aimed at noobs of any age.
>>>
>>> Thx for the Pyret pointer!
>>>
>>> -hk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherring at tentpost.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>
>>>> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential
>>>> developers.  It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many
>>>> other programming activities.
>>>>
>>>> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm
>>>> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible.  People can
>>>> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and
>>>> share/publish projects.  Only seasoned developers are comfortable with
>>>> the
>>>> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git".  :)
>>>>
>>>> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library
>>>> yet.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.pyret.org/
>>>>
>>>> - Daniel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and
>>>> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice
>>>> live coding.
>>>> >
>>>> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thx!
>>>> >
>>>> > -hk
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.arvid at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >       https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider
>>>> client for CommonLisp"
>>>> >
>>>> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is
>>>> actively under development.
>>>> >
>>>> > Andy
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >       Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high
>>>> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit
>>>> of a showstopper there.
>>>> >
>>>> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that
>>>> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA.
>>>> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but
>>>> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that.
>>>> >
>>>> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking
>>>> them down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have,
>>>> but again, this is about coding in general, not music
>>>> > generation. That is just the hook.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding
>>>> that will be a great next step.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM dbm at refined-audiometrics.com <
>>>> dbm at refined-audiometrics.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >       Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little
>>>> purpose in reinventing any portion of what they have done.
>>>> >
>>>> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto
>>>> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called
>>>> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and
>>>> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording
>>>> in the latest version.
>>>> >
>>>> > - David McClain
>>>> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC
>>>> > Tucson, AZ, USA
>>>> > refined-audiometrics.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >       On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the
>>>> web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take
>>>> off -- no need then to fret over platform,
>>>> > power will matter.
>>>> >
>>>> > Thx!
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <stoney at sb.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >       Ken,
>>>> >
>>>> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus?
>>>> > <http://opusmodus.com>
>>>> >
>>>> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible
>>>> array of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful
>>>> window system. Mac only.
>>>> >
>>>> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible.
>>>> Good Luck!
>>>> >
>>>> >  - Stoney
>>>> > ————Stonewall Ballard    stoney at sb.org   http://stoney.sb.org
>>>> >
>>>> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentilton at gmail.com)
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT
>>>> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on
>>>> creating career opportunities for
>>>> > African Americans.
>>>> >
>>>> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation
>>>> of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly
>>>> enough there to introduce
>>>> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts.
>>>> >
>>>> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself,
>>>> which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go!
>>>> >
>>>> > The idea is to:
>>>> >  *  use music as the hook;
>>>> >  *  defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming
>>>> (I am looking at you, node.js);
>>>> >  *  part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the
>>>> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run
>>>> where JS runs;
>>>> >  *  keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be.
>>>> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want
>>>> to develop those in the
>>>> >     code camp;
>>>> >  *  tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the
>>>> musical hook.
>>>> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a
>>>> strong musical bent. My questions are:
>>>> >  *  Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web
>>>> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever
>>>> macrology.
>>>> >  *  What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be
>>>> expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental.
>>>> >  *  If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an
>>>> ongoing discussion? Google groups?
>>>> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome.
>>>> >
>>>> > -hk
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kenneth Tilton
>>> http://tiltontec.com/
>>>
>>
>>

-- 
Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor         tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01
DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it
Viale Sarca 336
I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY
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