Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Scott McKay swmckay at gmail.com
Wed Dec 2 15:12:23 UTC 2020 

Rust is C++ done right. At this point, I have several stacks based on what
I'm doing:
 * Web back end – Python/Django
 * Web front end – Javascript/React
 * ML/AI (as a "client") – Python
 * Systems programming – Rust


On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:57 AM Marco Antoniotti <marco.antoniotti at unimib.it>
wrote:

> I second what Scott said.  Julia is not "fringe" and I am thinking that -
> too late probably - that is a Very Good Thing (tm)
>
> Apart from that, Rust was described in "Nature".  You cannot get more
> mainstream than that.
>
> Ciao
>
> Marco
>
> PS Me, I am checking out PL/I
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:52 AM Scott McKay <swmckay at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe
>> language (*),
>> use a *good* fringe language.
>>
>> (*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more.
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels <bobcassels at netscape.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Scott,
>>>
>>> Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function
>>> dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways
>>> (better type system, package system, better compilation model,
>>> cross-language integration).
>>>
>>> It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active,
>>> growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting
>>> edge).
>>>
>>> If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the
>>> smart cool kids are.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmckay at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new
>>> ground,
>>> and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro
>>> system
>>> can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its
>>> core language.
>>>
>>> Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction.
>>>
>>> —S
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey, Daniel.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say!
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the
>>>> students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme
>>>> will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over
>>>> algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two
>>>> thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :)
>>>>
>>>> I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are
>>>> considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs
>>>> put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is
>>>> because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet
>>>> powerful new music DSL.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet
>>>> powerful language aimed at noobs of any age.
>>>>
>>>> Thx for the Pyret pointer!
>>>>
>>>> -hk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherring at tentpost.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ken,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential
>>>>> developers.  It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than
>>>>> many
>>>>> other programming activities.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming",
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible.  People
>>>>> can
>>>>> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and
>>>>> share/publish projects.  Only seasoned developers are comfortable with
>>>>> the
>>>>> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git".  :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library
>>>>> yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.pyret.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> - Daniel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and
>>>>> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice
>>>>> live coding.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thx!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -hk
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.arvid at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >       https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider
>>>>> client for CommonLisp"
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it
>>>>> is actively under development.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Andy
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> >       Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high
>>>>> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit
>>>>> of a showstopper there.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that
>>>>> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA.
>>>>> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but
>>>>> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking
>>>>> them down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have,
>>>>> but again, this is about coding in general, not music
>>>>> > generation. That is just the hook.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding
>>>>> that will be a great next step.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM dbm at refined-audiometrics.com <
>>>>> dbm at refined-audiometrics.com> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little
>>>>> purpose in reinventing any portion of what they have done.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto
>>>>> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called
>>>>> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and
>>>>> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording
>>>>> in the latest version.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > - David McClain
>>>>> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC
>>>>> > Tucson, AZ, USA
>>>>> > refined-audiometrics.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the
>>>>> web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take
>>>>> off -- no need then to fret over platform,
>>>>> > power will matter.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Thx!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <stoney at sb.org>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >       Ken,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus?
>>>>> > <http://opusmodus.com>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible
>>>>> array of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful
>>>>> window system. Mac only.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible.
>>>>> Good Luck!
>>>>> >
>>>>> >  - Stoney
>>>>> > ————Stonewall Ballard    stoney at sb.org   http://stoney.sb.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentilton at gmail.com)
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT
>>>>> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on
>>>>> creating career opportunities for
>>>>> > African Americans.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic
>>>>> generation of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there
>>>>> is prolly enough there to introduce
>>>>> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming
>>>>> itself, which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The idea is to:
>>>>> >  *  use music as the hook;
>>>>> >  *  defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming
>>>>> (I am looking at you, node.js);
>>>>> >  *  part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the
>>>>> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run
>>>>> where JS runs;
>>>>> >  *  keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be.
>>>>> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want
>>>>> to develop those in the
>>>>> >     code camp;
>>>>> >  *  tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the
>>>>> musical hook.
>>>>> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a
>>>>> strong musical bent. My questions are:
>>>>> >  *  Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web
>>>>> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever
>>>>> macrology.
>>>>> >  *  What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course
>>>>> be expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental.
>>>>> >  *  If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an
>>>>> ongoing discussion? Google groups?
>>>>> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -hk
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Kenneth Tilton
>>>> http://tiltontec.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor         tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01
> DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it
> Viale Sarca 336
> I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY
>
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