Call for Interest: Clojure (or Lisp?) Code Camp with BLM focus

Wed Dec 2 13:51:43 UTC 2020

I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe
language (*),
use a *good* fringe language.

(*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels <bobcassels at netscape.net> wrote:

> Hey Scott,
>
> Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function
> dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways
> (better type system, package system, better compilation model,
> cross-language integration).
>
> It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active,
> growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting
> edge).
>
> If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the smart
> cool kids are.
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmckay at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new
> ground,
> and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro
> system
> can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its
> core language.
>
> Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction.
>
> —S
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey, Daniel.
>>
>> Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say!
>>
>> Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the
>> students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme
>> will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over
>> algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two
>> thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :)
>>
>> I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are
>> considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs
>> put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is
>> because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet
>> powerful new music DSL.
>>
>> Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet
>> powerful language aimed at noobs of any age.
>>
>> Thx for the Pyret pointer!
>>
>> -hk
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherring at tentpost.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Ken,
>>>
>>> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential
>>> developers.  It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many
>>> other programming activities.
>>>
>>> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm
>>> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible.  People can
>>> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and
>>> share/publish projects.  Only seasoned developers are comfortable with
>>> the
>>> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git".  :)
>>>
>>> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> https://www.pyret.org/
>>>
>>> - Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote:
>>>
>>> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and
>>> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice
>>> live coding.
>>> >
>>> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL.
>>> >
>>> > Thx!
>>> >
>>> > -hk
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.arvid at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >       https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider
>>> client for CommonLisp"
>>> >
>>> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is
>>> actively under development.
>>> >
>>> > Andy
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >       Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high
>>> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit
>>> of a showstopper there.
>>> >
>>> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that
>>> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA.
>>> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but
>>> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that.
>>> >
>>> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking them
>>> down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have, but
>>> again, this is about coding in general, not music
>>> > generation. That is just the hook.
>>> >
>>> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding
>>> that will be a great next step.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM dbm at refined-audiometrics.com <
>>> dbm at refined-audiometrics.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >       Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little purpose
>>> in reinventing any portion of what they have done.
>>> >
>>> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto
>>> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called
>>> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and
>>> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording in
>>> the latest version.
>>> >
>>> > - David McClain
>>> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC
>>> > Tucson, AZ, USA
>>> > refined-audiometrics.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >       On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentilton at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the
>>> web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take
>>> off -- no need then to fret over platform,
>>> > power will matter.
>>> >
>>> > Thx!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <stoney at sb.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> >       Ken,
>>> >
>>> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus?
>>> > <http://opusmodus.com>
>>> >
>>> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array
>>> of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window
>>> system. Mac only.
>>> >
>>> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible.
>>> Good Luck!
>>> >
>>> >  - Stoney
>>> > ————Stonewall Ballard    stoney at sb.org   http://stoney.sb.org
>>> >
>>> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentilton at gmail.com)
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT
>>> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on
>>> creating career opportunities for
>>> > African Americans.
>>> >
>>> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation
>>> of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly
>>> enough there to introduce
>>> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts.
>>> >
>>> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself,
>>> which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go!
>>> >
>>> > The idea is to:
>>> >  *  use music as the hook;
>>> >  *  defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I
>>> am looking at you, node.js);
>>> >  *  part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the
>>> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run
>>> where JS runs;
>>> >  *  keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be.
>>> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want
>>> to develop those in the
>>> >     code camp;
>>> >  *  tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the
>>> musical hook.
>>> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong
>>> musical bent. My questions are:
>>> >  *  Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web
>>> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever
>>> macrology.
>>> >  *  What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be
>>> expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental.
>>> >  *  If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an
>>> ongoing discussion? Google groups?
>>> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome.
>>> >
>>> > -hk
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Kenneth Tilton
>>> > http://tiltontec.com/
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth Tilton
>> http://tiltontec.com/
>>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/pro/attachments/20201202/47c85447/attachment.htm>