[Fwd: Re: [Bese-devel] simple submit sans javascript.]

[Waldo Rubinstein]

I didn't meant to criticize your patch. As a matter of fact, I  
haven't even had time to look at it, but based on your comments (and  
glancing at the patch), I agree with what you've done. I was just  
commenting on your general comments regarding the use of JS.

Yes, I agree with you (and Christian and the others) that in general,  
forms shouldn't require JS in order to submit or operate. I never  
_just_ rely on JS for my forms (neither submissions nor validation).  
However, form submission using Ajax is also nice. The simplest  
example I can provide is http://www.ajaxscaffold.com/ 
associations_demo/ (I apologize for polluting this list with RoR  
stuff). Just play with the actions of the People or the Pets list.

One last pollution suggestion is the way RoR encapsulates Prototype  
by checking if JS is enabled and automatically using Ajax. Otherwise,  
it uses simple form submissions. This is hidden from the developer by  
providing macro-like calls (AKA form helpers) to the Prototype  
library, so the developer is hardly ever working with Prototype  
directly.

- Waldo

On May 9, 2006, at 6:19 PM, Drew Crampsie wrote:

>
> Waldo Rubinstein wrote:
>> I think that the exploitation of Ajax all over the place are  
>> spoiling the users, who after much work, time, and effort, finally  
>> accepted the way browser-based apps worked compared to fat client- 
>> server apps.
>>
>> Now that Ajax has hit the streets and has shown the users how it  
>> can disguise the back and forth of the usual browser-based  
>> interaction with something more seamless, is just forcing  
>> everything to the "pages bloated with javascript".
>
> I agree with this, and use Dojo extensively. But in the case of  
> submitting a form, the page reload happens anyway, and the existing  
> scheme does, in fact, make it harder to use ajax in certain cases,.
>
> if you look closely at the patch, it changes the way the action  
> parameter is processed in the case of multiple inputs. This  
> actually makes it easier to use UCW with ajax (at least the way i  
> do it) be letting me submit a form from the page, but call a  
> different action simply by appending the correct parameter.
>
> Also, there is the accessibility  argument, and the personal pain i  
> remember when using Linux 10 years before everybody else..  
> alternate browsers and all that.
>
>>
>>
>> At least this has been my experience with my customers. I don't  
>> develop for public users. All my applications are for internal  
>> purposes, intranet-like apps. So that "fat client-server"-like  
>> experience is not only appreciated, but now is being demanded.
>
> I didn't say anything about throwing away the baby with the  
> bathwater :). I use Dojo a lot.. but never simply to submit a form.  
> I also have an application that uses prototype, and an older  
> version at that. loading Dojo clobbers it. i try to keep these  
> things up to date with the latest ucw, as hard as that is.
>>
>>
>> I don't see the "big deal" in requiring it in UCW apps. Once of  
>> the things about Dojo compared to the rest is it's packaging  
>> system which will let you minimize the initial amount of  
>> javascript hat you need to load and then just load what you need  
>> more if you have to.
> Dojo is great, so is lynx, cell-phone browsers, etc etc. Why  
> require something that is not needed, and breaks in some environments?
>
> just my $0.02CAD
>
> drewc
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