<HTML><BODY style="word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; -khtml-line-break: after-white-space; ">I didn't meant to criticize your patch. As a matter of fact, I haven't even had time to look at it, but based on your comments (and glancing at the patch), I agree with what you've done. I was just commenting on your general comments regarding the use of JS.<DIV><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></DIV><DIV>Yes, I agree with you (and Christian and the others) that in general, forms shouldn't require JS in order to submit or operate. I never _just_ rely on JS for my forms (neither submissions nor validation). However, form submission using Ajax is also nice. The simplest example I can provide is <FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica"><A href="http://www.ajaxscaffold.com/associations_demo/">http://www.ajaxscaffold.com/associations_demo/</A> (I apologize for polluting this list with RoR stuff). Just play with the actions of the People or the Pets list.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica">One last pollution suggestion is the way RoR encapsulates Prototype by checking if JS is enabled and automatically using Ajax. Otherwise, it uses simple form submissions. This is hidden from the developer by providing macro-like calls (AKA form helpers) to the Prototype library, so the developer is hardly ever working with Prototype directly.</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica"><BR class="khtml-block-placeholder"></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica">- Waldo</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT class="Apple-style-span" face="Helvetica"><BR></FONT><DIV><DIV>On May 9, 2006, at 6:19 PM, Drew Crampsie wrote:</DIV><BR class="Apple-interchange-newline"><BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Waldo Rubinstein wrote:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I think that the exploitation of Ajax all over the place are spoiling the users, who after much work, time, and effort, finally accepted the way browser-based apps worked compared to fat client-server apps.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Now that Ajax has hit the streets and has shown the users how it can disguise the back and forth of the usual browser-based interaction with something more seamless, is just forcing everything to the "pages bloated with javascript".</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I agree with this, and use Dojo extensively. But in the case of submitting a form, the page reload happens anyway, and the existing scheme does, in fact, make it harder to use ajax in certain cases,.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">if you look closely at the patch, it changes the way the action parameter is processed in the case of multiple inputs. This actually makes it easier to use UCW with ajax (at least the way i do it) be letting me submit a form from the page, but call a different action simply by appending the correct parameter.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Also, there is the accessibility<SPAN class="Apple-converted-space"> </SPAN>argument, and the personal pain i remember when using Linux 10 years before everybody else.. alternate browsers and all that.</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">At least this has been my experience with my customers. I don't develop for public users. All my applications are for internal purposes, intranet-like apps. So that "fat client-server"-like experience is not only appreciated, but now is being demanded.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I didn't say anything about throwing away the baby with the bathwater :). I use Dojo a lot.. but never simply to submit a form. I also have an application that uses prototype, and an older version at that. loading Dojo clobbers it. i try to keep these things up to date with the latest ucw, as hard as that is.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I don't see the "big deal" in requiring it in UCW apps. Once of the things about Dojo compared to the rest is it's packaging system which will let you minimize the initial amount of javascript hat you need to load and then just load what you need more if you have to.</DIV> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Dojo is great, so is lynx, cell-phone browsers, etc etc. Why require something that is not needed, and breaks in some environments?</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">just my $0.02CAD</DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><BR></DIV><DIV style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">drewc</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>