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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hilarious. I definitely see parallels to this where I work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>BC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> David Penton
[mailto:djp@arqux.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, November 08, 2009 9:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> toronto lisp<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [toronto-lisp] A Not Strictly Lisp Question<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here's a long rant. I loved writing this. It was cathartic,
and I just couldn't stop myself. I hope it doesn't annoy anyone toooo much.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal>I guess my own background has resulted in some antipathy to
the business computing culture. Before going to law school, and then again
recently, I did application development for organizations whose main line of
work was not software development. I did so for perhaps twenty client
organizations the petroleum industry and then later in law-related fields<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>There are aspects of the culture in such settings that are
hard to take. For as long as I worked in that environment, the source of the
nastiness was usually the central IT department, which went by various names
such as "Data Processing", "Computer Department", etc.
These folks had certain convictions that were, to them, beyond challenge. There
was/is some validity to their view, but they took it too far. A rough catalog
of a few of their notions might include:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>(1) Existing tools (meaning s/w and h/w already available
in our organization) are adequate for all computing-related purposes. Such
tools should always be centralized, never distributed. Innovations make it too
hard to administer our data centre.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>(2) There are no hard programming problems. Everything boils
down do getting requirements from users correctly.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>(3) The current flavour of the month s/w development
methodology will solve all your problems related to (2) above.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>(4) Computer-science guys are a problem. Soon automated
methods will make those geeks obsolete.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>To blather on a bit more I'll give an example of the
absurdities these views created in one project I worked on..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>In the late 1980s I worked on an engineering problem that
boiled down to (a) a gas pipeline network design problem with an interactive
aspect, and (b) solving a large sparse system of nonlinear de's to test
optimality of the network design.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The IT department had a huge IBM mainframe. They ran ADABAS
and NATURAL (business, meaning commerce tools; look up Software AG in the
web). They flatly refused to accept my recommendation that we use (the then
emerging) graphic workstations to do the interactive network design. They
insisted that we could use their dumb IBM 3270 terminals hooked up to the
mainframe. (These clunkers will be as unfamiliar to younger guys as vacuum tube
computers. They were about that obsolete even at the time.) They also insisted
that all data modelling, storage and retrieval use inverted-list database
technology (ADABAS). And not just for persistence, but for run-time modelling
of what were inherently graph structures. They insisted on that <i>because
db technology was what they had and understood.</i> They could not
conceive of the existence of problems that "business software" could
not solve.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The IT/Business guys also insisted that we derive solutions <i>directly</i>
from the output of the mandated s/w methodology. This methodology was perhaps
suitable for setting up, say, an accounting system in which the domain experts
could tell developers more or less how to write the software using
"business rules."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>The problem was, the domain experts in this case were
engineers <i>who did not know what the solution to the problem was</i>. They
fully expected those of us on the project team to research, find, adapt or
invent algorithms and techniques to solve the problem. Their expression of
"business rules" was no more than a statement of hoped-for outcomes.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>This led to a year-long series of meetings run by one senior
consultant (who bought into the methodology thing) in which she repeatedly
interviewed groups of engineers. She repeatedly asked them "what software
do you want us to write?" (These were "JAD" or joint application
development sessions according to the methodology.) The engineers would sketch
out the expected <i>results,</i> but when she went back to her office she
had no idea what to do next.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>After 18 months I quit because I could not take it any
longer. The project never produced a damned thing, as far as I know.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Here is the paradigm in that culture:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>BUSINESS RULES ==> {a miraculous non-human-mediated
transformation occurs} ==> A GREAT SYSTEM<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Right.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>So, I despise that culture. Now that I'm on a roll, I'll say
that I hate the word "business" in a lot of ways.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>More than anything I HATE the assumption that any and all
important activities in the world are a form of "business."
Government, so neo-liberals say, should be run like a business. The real world
is about "business." Universities are now businesses, run by
administrators who pimp their institutions out to the "business
community." Children's soccer teams, amateur string orchestras,
photography clubs, churches, community centres, EVERYTHING should be run
"like a business."<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Well, fuck that, I say. Down with market capitalism! Death
to Microsoft! Long live the revolution! To the barricades, comrades!
Aaaarrrgh....<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>Whew. Now I'll eat some junk food.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>- Dave -<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On 2009-11-08, at 11:56 AM, Abram Hindle wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>At least business computing is about meaning. They don't
care that there<br>
is a computer there, they simply want process followed and these objects<br>
or symbols manipulated.<br>
<br>
It is actually very abstract in many cases and it is often grounded in<br>
being actually useful to the customer who employs it.<br>
<br>
That said, you should stay skeptical ;)<br>
<br>
abram<br>
<br>
Rudolf Olah wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal>Maybe it's because I've been heavy into Dijkstra lately, but
"business<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>computing" is fundamentally flawed and fashion-driven
and really isn't<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>worth understanding. As Dijkstra said, businesses
purposefully try to<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>complicate things and keep their work secret in order to
profit.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>If you strip away the bullshit, it's easy to understand and
useful.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>However, that would make it *too* easy to understand and
accessible and<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>lots of IBM salespeople would be out of jobs! Bullshit keeps
the economy<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>afloat I'm afraid :-P<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>You should grow a beard and turn into Dijkstra or Knuth or
Stallman<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>instead :-D<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>-Rudolf<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal>toronto-lisp mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><a href="mailto:toronto-lisp@common-lisp.net">toronto-lisp@common-lisp.net</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal><a
href="http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/toronto-lisp">http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/toronto-lisp</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=MsoNormal><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:toronto-lisp@common-lisp.net">toronto-lisp@common-lisp.net</a><br>
http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/toronto-lisp<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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