<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>As one of the list moderators, might I interject two words here:</div><div>"please" and "stop"?</div><div><br></div><div>I agree with Drew's sentiments, if not completely with his tone.</div><div>But if his tone offends you or anyone else, please reply to him</div><div>off-list.</div><div><br></div><div>Let's keep this list very focused. Thanks!</div><div><br></div><div>--Scott</div><br><div><div>On Jan 20, 2011, at 2:46 PM, Alexander Repenning wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Hi Drew,</div><div><br></div><div>perhaps the point of a mailing list for <b>professional</b> lisp developers is to act, well ... professional?</div><div><br></div><div>Remember one of the points made in original article about the Lisp community: "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(89, 89, 89); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 22px; ">The community isn’t nearly as blood thirsty as some people might portrait it."</span></div><div><br></div><div>Seems to me you just confirmed what many people appear to worry about. Well done.</div><div><br></div><div>Alex</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Jan 20, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Drew Crampsie wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On 20 January 2011 08:04, Alexander Repenning <<a href="mailto:ralex@cs.colorado.edu">ralex@cs.colorado.edu</a>> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Common Lisp has gone STALE. The Common Lisp community preserves Lisp instead of advancing it.<br></blockquote><br>I participated in the creation of this mailing list in part to get<br>away from trolling like this on the other lisp forums. Is there no<br>place on the interwebs safe from such bullshit?<br><br><blockquote type="cite">The 21 century computer science world need no more essays explaining why Common Lisp is the way it is (stale).<br></blockquote><br>And i'm not convinced a mailing list for professional lisp developers<br>needs more diatribes explaining how _we_ should 'fix' Common Lisp to<br>make it 'cool' again.<br><br>Can we leave this sort of drivel on comp.lang.lisp where i have<br>plonk-ability, and keep this mailing list for "people who already know<br>and use Common Lisp and who don't want to discuss the<br>merits of it or how other languages are worse or better"?<br><br>Cheers,<br><br>drewc<br><br><br><br><br><br>On 20 January 2011 08:04, Alexander Repenning <<a href="mailto:ralex@cs.colorado.edu">ralex@cs.colorado.edu</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">One point made:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It’s probably faster than most dynamic languages.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is still mostly true but as I am tracking the speed of JavaScript versus Common Lisp I can see a scary performance cross over point in the near future (months). Already, in some of our benchmarks JavaScript running in OS X Chrome is getting very close (10% gap) to Clozure Common Lisp. Why is that? Common Lisp has gone STALE. The Common Lisp community preserves Lisp instead of advancing it. The result: flatline! As far as I can tell non of the exciting JIT compiler technologies developed in the last couple of years have made it into any CL implementation. If you follow this trend you may conclude the right thing to do, if you want to continue to use Lisp, would be to compile it down to JavaScript, yes, JavaScript, not C or direct to binary.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Same thing with IDEs: stale, flatline.. Perhaps with the exception of LispWorks it appears that most Lisp programmers are just fine with Emacs. Well, Emacs was great 35 years ago. Remember the actually innovative IDEs of Lisp on Lisp machines? Is SLIME really the best we can do now? Take Clozure CL. As far as I can tell most people, including some the developers perhaps, are using SLIME too. Start using something new. For instance start using the Cocoa based CCL IDE. Yes, still primitive but with real opportunities to create some fine IDE tools that actually would look OK even to a 21 Century computer science students. Nowadays, even browser (e.g., Safari and FireFox) have debugging tools built in that make SLIME look like last century technology that belongs to a computer museum.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">The Lisp community is not only small but also fragmented. The 21 century computer science world need no more essays explaining why Common Lisp is the way it is (stale). It is time to leap into action and to IMPLEMENT stuff that is not just interesting to the Common Lisp community but to computer science in general. Play with Clozure Common Lisp the IDE version (Mac and Window). Do not just get frustrated and switch back to Slime but ask yourself "what can YOU do for Common Lisp (or more specifically CCL) to make it cool again"<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">best, Alex<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 19, 2011, at 3:06 PM, Daniel Weinreb wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This is a very nice essay to help people get over their<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">initial problems with Lisp:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://pavelpenev.posterous.com/learning-lisp-the-bump-free-way">http://pavelpenev.posterous.com/learning-lisp-the-bump-free-way</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Prof. Alexander Repenning<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">University of Colorado<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Computer Science Department<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Boulder, CO 80309-430<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">vCard: <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf">http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">_______________________________________________<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">pro mailing list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="mailto:pro@common-lisp.net">pro@common-lisp.net</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pro">http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pro</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Prof. Alexander Repenning</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">University of Colorado</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Computer Science Department</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Boulder, CO 80309-430</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">vCard: <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf">http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf</a></font></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span></span>
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