[elephant-devel] Learning about Elephant

Wed Jan 28 05:32:38 UTC 2009

That would be correct if you added (setf (friends-of person3) person2)

On Jan 27, 2009, at 5:06 PM, John wrote:

> Thanks for the clear example. However, maybe the idioms are  
> confusing me, but many-to-many tells me that I should be able to do  
> something like:
>
> (setf (friends-of person1) person2)
> (setf (friends-of person1) person3)
> (setf (friends-of person1) person4)
> (setf (friends-of person1) person5)
>
> (setf (friends-of person2) person3)
>
> such that:
>
> (friends-of person1) => (person2 person3 person4 person5)
> (friends-of person2) => (person1 person3)
> (friends-of person3) => (person1 person2)
> (friends-of person4) => person1
> (friends-of person5) => person1
>
> Would that be the expected behavior?
>
> Best regards,
> JD
>
> On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Ian Eslick <eslick at media.mit.edu>  
> wrote:
> Slot associations appear to work reflexively, by the way.
>
> (defpclass self-assoc ()
>            ((friends-of :accessor friends-of
>                         :associate (self-assoc friended-me)
>                         :many-to-many t)
>             (friended-me :accessor friended-me
>                       :associate (self-assoc friends-of)
>                       :many-to-many t)))
>
> This simply says I have an association among self-assoc instances.
> Any (setf (friends-of person1) person2) says that person2 is a friend-
> of person1.  Automatically, you get the inverse mapping which is that
> person1 friended person2 (assuming these associations are  
> directional).
>
> If they are not directional, then you can do this:
> (defpclass person ()
>   ((friends :accessor friends-of
>        :associate (person friends) :many-to-many t)))
>
> Now if you (setf (friends-of person1) person2), you will get:
>
> (friends-of person1) => person2
> (friends-of person2) => person1
>
> This is a non-directional relationship between two entities so there's
> no need for two slots.
>
> This all seems to work well in the current Alpha 2.
>
> Ian
>
> On Jan 27, 2009, at 1:32 PM, Ian Eslick wrote:
>
> >
> > On Jan 27, 2009, at 11:00 AM, John wrote:
> >>
> >> 1) Every read/write of pclass slots is done directly from/to the
> >> database, so no in-memory "copy" exists (unless some sort of
> >> transient cache slot model is used). This is good. However, is
> >> Elephant "intelligent" enough so that if you attempt to setf a slot
> >> value with the same value stored in the slot, Elephant will "avoid"
> >> the writing to the database, since the value hasn't really changed?
> >> If that's not the out-of-the-box behavior, I pressume that it would
> >> be relatively easy to add this functionality using MOP. I also
> >> assume that doing this will require another read before the write  
> in
> >> order to compare the value to be written, but then again, Elephant
> >> claims that reads are much cheaper than writes.
> >>
> >
> > Such a thing would be possible, but you would need to have a local
> > copy of the value in memory and this could create more problems than
> > it solves.  It's also unclear to me how common this case.  I don't
> > write the same value to the same slot very often!
> >
> >> 2) According to Oracle: "Berkeley DB includes support for building
> >> highly available applications based on replication..." (http://www.oracle.com/technology/documentation/berkeley-db/db/ref/rep/intro.html
> >> ) So, I assume that in the event that a single machine becomes
> >> unable to handle the load of a busy application, BDB supports
> >> replication to multiple machines with near-instant replication
> >> effects (performance is inversly proportional to replication  
> speed).
> >> So, the question is, can Elephant accommodate to this model? If I
> >> read correctly, the manual states that elephant maintains a weak
> >> hash of persistent objects. So, if BDB is deployed in a distributed
> >> model and Elephant is running in each separate machine, we could in
> >> theory "trust" that the data read/written from/to disk will be all
> >> in sync across all machines (as long as database IO on same object/
> >> slot occurs at a frequency greater than the replication rate). The
> >> question I have is with the weak hash. If a write is made in one
> >> machine, the data on disk is updated across all machines. However,
> >> the weak hash remains stale in the machines were the data was only
> >> replicated to. Is this an actual problem or does Elephant use the
> >> weak hash "intelligently" to recover in the event that the weak  
> hash
> >> becomes "unexpectedly" stale?
> >
> > The weak hash is simply used to speed up the 'recreation' of a
> > persistent reference when it is deserialized from the underlying
> > storage medium (BDB in this case) so fits into this model.  I've
> > looked several times at building-in the support to enable a full
> > replication model for BDB, but it's a fair bit of work to deal with
> > the single-master requirement for replication and distributed
> > transactions for global coherence. The write performance and
> > contention performance may decline noticeably, but conflict-free  
> read
> > performance should be the same as in the non-replicated case.  I  
> don't
> > fully understand all these issues yet and am prioritizing a lisp- 
> only
> > Prevalence style backend in my development roadmap.
> >
> >> 3) I come from a RDBMS world, so I'm still learning the modalities
> >> of connected objects vs just related rows. So, reading the  
> tutorials
> >> you describe a friends model using PSets. So, imagine a concept
> >> similar to Facebook in terms of a friends database. I have millions
> >> of people created in the system and they all create their list of
> >> friends. Some people may have "few" or no friends while others  
> could
> >> have hundreds of thousands of friends (e.g. Pres. Obama). Are PSets
> >> the correct way to model this for larger number of objects or is
> >> there a more appropriate methodology recommended in Elephant?
> >> Obviously the idea behind this is so that you could perform
> >> manipulations on these "friends" relatively easy, such as add/ 
> remove
> >> friends or perform global queries as to list all friends of people
> >> who are friends of Pres. Obama. There are references on the list
> >> about a query system being worked on and some vanilla version being
> >> available, but independently of that, I think my question is more
> >> related to the object model implementation. Maybe I'm wrong.
> >
> > Psets today are a convenience API around the BTree that can be
> > overridden by data stores later for more efficient implementation
> > (e.g. hash vs. tree) as appropriate for that store.  BTrees are  
> cheap
> > for BDB to create and use so use of them at any size is fine.  You
> > might want to wrap an abstraction around the BTree directly since  
> the
> > pset API is an un-ordered set.  If you want to do range extraction  
> or
> > set intersection you'll want the btree's support for ordered  
> objects.
> >
> > The query system currently doesn't support psets, although it should
> > eventually.
> >
> > Slot-associations currently don't deal with reflexive references
> > (associations among instances of a single class), but that would  
> also
> > address the 'friends-of' problem.
> >
> > I hope you enjoy elephant!  If you want to add/implement or spec out
> > some of these changes you are thinking about, I'd be happy to  
> support
> > you.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Ian
> >
> >> Anyway, thank you for your help in advanced. Look forward to  
> hearing
> >> back from anyone soon and keep learning more about Elephant.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> JD
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> elephant-devel at common-lisp.net
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> >
> >
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>
>
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