From ktilton at nyc.rr.com Sun Apr 24 01:08:23 2005 From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:08:23 -0400 Subject: [cello-devel] Re: [cells-devel] New Cells User Feedback (includes patch!) In-Reply-To: <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> References: <200504222033.49709.peter.denno@nist.gov> <4269BB1B.2050109@nyc.rr.com> <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> Message-ID: <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> Peter Denno wrote: >On Friday 22 April 2005 23:03, Kenny Tilton wrote: > > >>well, keep the pestering up (13 more days to go) and we can do something. >> >>Is hello-c (or whatever we want to call "UFFI extended to support >>callbacks into Lisp from C as well as CLisp") >> >> > >Hello-c is fine with me. > > > >>going to get enough >>attention to warrant its own c-l.net project? >> >> > >Got me. I haven't had time to think about it yet. Do you suppose there are >other projects that would use it? > Well, we would soon have both Cello and Cells-Gtk reaching into Cells to get hello-c, but they also go after Cells, so that is not too silly. And it is hard to imagine anyone doing a project without using Cells. But... When kevin rosenberg encouraged me to take my uffi extensions to a new project, he mentioned that he himself thought it was time for a new uffi. CLisp now has a great FFI, but UFFI does not support CLisp. Callbacks into Lisp from C are now universal enough to meet KR's requirements for UFFI inclusion, but I do not see him going that way. Unless KR has a chnage of heart, Lisp needs a new semi-universal C FFI. > > > >>Should utils-kt quietly be redundantly added to Cells and hello-c? Or is >>it fine as a module under Cells? I doubt it is worth making into its own >>project, as at least one other did. >> >> > >Maybe added to cells makes most sense. I'm not too crazy of the idea of a >separate module for utilities. We each have our own such collection and I'd >like to add a few of mine wherever they are useful. > >In my thinking, a module ought to support a bounded, well-defined purpose -- >either as a component of a system or as a set of operations on a single kind >of object. Utilities aren't like that. > And the good news is that they do not undergo evolutionary development over time, so they can just be replicated into a serious module and forgotten. hmmmm. well, if we are going to upset the applecart we may as well do it all at once: cells out from under cell-cultures to be a toplevel module in the cells project (and eventually the only one). hello-c into its own c-l.net project (if c-l.net approves) utils-kt replicated redundantly into... uh-oh. who exports it?! OK, let's have cells export those functions. cello back over to the cello project cell-cultures sleeps with the fish all those in favor? opposed? kt -- Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/ Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film "Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 26 09:35:06 2005 From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:35:06 -0700 Subject: [cello-devel] Re: [cells-devel] New Cells User Feedback (includes patch!) In-Reply-To: <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> References: <200504222033.49709.peter.denno@nist.gov> <4269BB1B.2050109@nyc.rr.com> <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <17006.2890.573897.719340@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Kenny Tilton writes: > And the good news is that they do not undergo evolutionary development > over time, so they can just be replicated into a serious module and > forgotten. Well, yes. But if everything's already using Cells, it can't hurt to put it there. Unless you plan on releasing a major Cells-free package, in which case I guess it would want its own copy. > hmmmm. well, if we are going to upset the applecart we may as well do it > all at once: > > cells out from under cell-cultures to be a toplevel module in the cells > project (and eventually the only one). > hello-c into its own c-l.net project (if c-l.net approves) > utils-kt replicated redundantly into... uh-oh. who exports it?! > OK, let's have cells export those functions. > cello back over to the cello project > cell-cultures sleeps with the fish > > all those in favor? opposed? I'd like to see utils-kt go in a cells/utils-kt subdirectory, but keep its own package. That way there's only one point in cvs to keep up-to-date, and Cello and cells-gtk can use it, but Cells users don't have to. Weekend before last, I was going to put the new asdf-installable Cells release up on c-l.net, but I've managed to forget my gpg password, so I can't sign it. If it doesn't come to me over the next little while, I'll give up and make a new key. From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 26 14:36:00 2005 From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:36:00 -0700 Subject: [cello-devel] Re: [cells-devel] New Cells User Feedback (includes patch!) In-Reply-To: <426E49C6.3080509@nyc.rr.com> References: <200504222033.49709.peter.denno@nist.gov> <4269BB1B.2050109@nyc.rr.com> <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> <17006.2890.573897.719340@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> <426E49C6.3080509@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <17006.20944.85678.193705@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Kenny Tilton writes: > This is the only feedback I have gotten. This is insufficient pestering. > The Open Source Fairy is dead. I am working now on my proprietary > stuff and want to concentrate on it long enough to build that kind of > momentum that has me waking up at 6am and stumbling to the keyboard to > pick up where I left off. > > The next window of opportunity is on or about May 10th. Pester now or > forever hold your peace. > > :) Hmm, pestering is one thing, but how about threats? If the Open Source Fairy has passed on, I can reorganize cvs and release a new asdf-installable Cells, but I'd just orphan the other stuff in cell-cultures that I don't use From ktilton at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 26 14:01:42 2005 From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:01:42 -0400 Subject: [cello-devel] Re: [cells-devel] New Cells User Feedback (includes patch!) In-Reply-To: <17006.2890.573897.719340@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> References: <200504222033.49709.peter.denno@nist.gov> <4269BB1B.2050109@nyc.rr.com> <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> <17006.2890.573897.719340@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <426E49C6.3080509@nyc.rr.com> Thomas F. Burdick wrote: >Kenny Tilton writes: > > > And the good news is that they do not undergo evolutionary development > > over time, so they can just be replicated into a serious module and > > forgotten. > >Well, yes. But if everything's already using Cells, it can't hurt to >put it there. Unless you plan on releasing a major Cells-free >package, in which case I guess it would want its own copy. > Yeah, I am thinking cl-opengl, cl-openal, cl-ftgl, cl-magick and cl-anythingelseiamforgetting are all worthy standalone projects. > > > hmmmm. well, if we are going to upset the applecart we may as well do it > > all at once: > > > > cells out from under cell-cultures to be a toplevel module in the cells > > project (and eventually the only one). > > hello-c into its own c-l.net project (if c-l.net approves) > > utils-kt replicated redundantly into... uh-oh. who exports it?! > > OK, let's have cells export those functions. > > cello back over to the cello project > > cell-cultures sleeps with the fish > > > > all those in favor? opposed? > >I'd like to see utils-kt go in a cells/utils-kt subdirectory, but keep >its own package. > Agreed. > That way there's only one point in cvs to keep >up-to-date, and Cello and cells-gtk can use it, but Cells users don't >have to. > >Weekend before last, I was going to put the new asdf-installable Cells >release up on c-l.net, but I've managed to forget my gpg password, so >I can't sign it. If it doesn't come to me over the next little while, >I'll give up and make a new key. > This is the only feedback I have gotten. This is insufficient pestering. The Open Source Fairy is dead. I am working now on my proprietary stuff and want to concentrate on it long enough to build that kind of momentum that has me waking up at 6am and stumbling to the keyboard to pick up where I left off. The next window of opportunity is on or about May 10th. Pester now or forever hold your peace. :) kenny -- Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/ Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film "Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Tue Apr 26 15:19:13 2005 From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:19:13 -0700 Subject: [cello-devel] Re: [cells-devel] New Cells User Feedback (includes patch!) In-Reply-To: <426E572B.4020704@nyc.rr.com> References: <200504222033.49709.peter.denno@nist.gov> <4269BB1B.2050109@nyc.rr.com> <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> <17006.2890.573897.719340@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> <426E49C6.3080509@nyc.rr.com> <17006.20944.85678.193705@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> <426E572B.4020704@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: <17006.23537.243251.653746@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Kenny Tilton writes: > -- a utils-kt module (aka toplevel directory) gets created in the Cells > project and populated with the stuff under cell-cultures > > -- the current Cells directory (module?) at the top level of the > Cells project will be re-populated with the Cells directory > under cell-cultures. cells.asd targets the new utils-kt module. Do you want to release utils-kt as an asdf-installable package? If not, it'd be easeir (for me) if utils-kt were a subdirectory of cells. I can always solve this by adding more cheesy hacks on top of asdf though (like the lpr support). From ktilton at nyc.rr.com Tue Apr 26 14:58:51 2005 From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:58:51 -0400 Subject: [cello-devel] Re: [cells-devel] New Cells User Feedback (includes patch!) In-Reply-To: <17006.20944.85678.193705@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> References: <200504222033.49709.peter.denno@nist.gov> <4269BB1B.2050109@nyc.rr.com> <200504231638.32981.peter.denno@nist.gov> <426AF187.8010901@nyc.rr.com> <17006.2890.573897.719340@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> <426E49C6.3080509@nyc.rr.com> <17006.20944.85678.193705@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> Message-ID: <426E572B.4020704@nyc.rr.com> Thomas F. Burdick wrote: >Kenny Tilton writes: > > > This is the only feedback I have gotten. This is insufficient pestering. > > The Open Source Fairy is dead. I am working now on my proprietary > > stuff and want to concentrate on it long enough to build that kind of > > momentum that has me waking up at 6am and stumbling to the keyboard to > > pick up where I left off. > > > > The next window of opportunity is on or about May 10th. Pester now or > > forever hold your peace. > > > > :) > >Hmm, pestering is one thing, but how about threats? > Threats are good. > If the Open >Source Fairy has passed on, I can reorganize cvs and release a new >asdf-installable Cells, but I'd just orphan the other stuff in >cell-cultures that I don't use > OK, so: -- a utils-kt module (aka toplevel directory) gets created in the Cells project and populated with the stuff under cell-cultures -- the current Cells directory (module?) at the top level of the Cells project will be re-populated with the Cells directory under cell-cultures. cells.asd targets the new utils-kt module. -- all lists (cells, cello, cells-gtk) are notified that the cell-cultures subdirectories for utils-kt and cells are no longer maintained and will be deleted in a week Hmm. Perhaps while I am at it I should apply for projects for hello-c, cl-magick, cl-ftgl, cl-openal, and cl-opengl (if that is not already taken)? kt -- Cells? Cello? Cells-Gtk?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/ Why Lisp? http://lisp.tech.coop/RtL%20Highlight%20Film "Doctor, I wrestled with reality for forty years, and I am happy to state that I finally won out over it." -- Elwood P. Dowd From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU Wed Apr 27 11:40:28 2005 From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 04:40:28 -0700 Subject: [cello-devel] Cells 2.0 release candidate Message-ID: <17007.31276.295374.747613@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU> I've put a release candidate for Cells up here: http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~tfb/cells_2.0.tar.gz Before I put it up on c-l.net, change the Cliki link, and make noise about it, I'd appreciate it if other Cells users would confirm that it works for them. Particularly users of Cello and Cells-Gtk, which I don't use. The differences from what's in CVS are mostly organizational: I moved utils-kt into the cells directory, rearranged the locations of a couple files, and removed the unused profile code. I replaced defconstant-once (in utils-kt) with a better define-constant that DoesWIM, and I think what Kenny means, too, based on the evidence of his code. I also changed the one use of defconstant to use define-constant, and now everything builds cleanly again on SBCL. I think this should all be uncontroversial. If this works for everybody, I'll paste together a README file from the various candidates in cell-cultures, and release this weekend. Kenny: this tarball looks to me like a good way of organizing cells in CVS, so if you agree, you can just check this in to have a freed-from-cell-cultures cells. Otherwise, you can figure it out, this works for a release anyhow.