From mbaringer at common-lisp.net Tue Apr 1 05:00:22 2008 From: mbaringer at common-lisp.net (Marco Baringer) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 00:00:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Bese-devel] New patches to arnesi_dev: 31-Mar-2008 Message-ID: <20080401050022.EDE6C4D0A8@common-lisp.net> Mon Mar 31 05:29:29 EST 2008 sven at beta9.be * strict-define-modify-macro-lw5.1 LispWorks 5.1 strictly enforces the function in define-modify-marco to be a symbol. Lambda's are not supported. Replaced the lambda with a helper function. M ./src/list.lisp -2 +4 M ./src/numbers.lisp -8 +12 An updated tarball of arnesi_dev's source can be downloaded here: http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/tarballs/arnesi_dev-20080331.tar.gz Darcsweb URL: http://uncommon-web.com/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=arnesi_dev;a=summary From ctdean at sokitomi.com Sat Apr 5 01:44:25 2008 From: ctdean at sokitomi.com (Chris Dean) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:44:25 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] arnesi http patch Message-ID: Below is a patch to slightly extend html entity handling. - We add more html entity mappings - We handle the conversion of numeric html entities. Cheers, Chris Dean diff -rN -u old-arnesi_dev/src/http.lisp new-arnesi_dev/src/http.lisp --- old-arnesi_dev/src/http.lisp 2008-04-04 17:16:16.000000000 -0700 +++ new-arnesi_dev/src/http.lisp 2008-04-04 17:16:16.000000000 -0700 @@ -126,9 +126,12 @@ (defun make-html-entities () (let ((ht (make-hash-table :test 'equalp))) - (flet ((add-mapping (char escaped) - (setf (gethash char ht) escaped - (gethash escaped ht) char))) + (flet ((add-mapping (char-or-code escaped) + (let ((char (if (numberp char-or-code) + (code-char char-or-code) + char-or-code))) + (setf (gethash char ht) escaped + (gethash escaped ht) char)))) (add-mapping #\< "<") (add-mapping #\> ">") (add-mapping #\& "&") @@ -143,18 +146,283 @@ (add-mapping "o`" "ò") (add-mapping "o'" "ó") (add-mapping "u`" "ù") - (add-mapping "u'" "ú")) + (add-mapping "u'" "ú") + (add-mapping 160 " ") + (add-mapping 161 "¡") + (add-mapping 162 "¢") + (add-mapping 163 "£") + (add-mapping 164 "¤") + (add-mapping 165 "¥") + (add-mapping 166 "¦") + (add-mapping 167 "§") + (add-mapping 168 "¨") + (add-mapping 169 "©") + (add-mapping 170 "ª") + (add-mapping 171 "«") + (add-mapping 172 "¬") + (add-mapping 173 "­") + (add-mapping 174 "®") + (add-mapping 175 "¯") + (add-mapping 176 "°") + (add-mapping 177 "±") + (add-mapping 178 "²") + (add-mapping 179 "³") + (add-mapping 180 "´") + (add-mapping 181 "µ") + (add-mapping 182 "¶") + (add-mapping 183 "·") + (add-mapping 184 "¸") + (add-mapping 185 "¹") + (add-mapping 186 "º") + (add-mapping 187 "»") + (add-mapping 188 "¼") + (add-mapping 189 "½") + (add-mapping 190 "¾") + (add-mapping 191 "¿") + (add-mapping 192 "À") + (add-mapping 193 "Á") + (add-mapping 194 "Â") + (add-mapping 195 "Ã") + (add-mapping 196 "Ä") + (add-mapping 197 "Å") + (add-mapping 198 "Æ") + (add-mapping 199 "Ç") + (add-mapping 200 "È") + (add-mapping 201 "É") + (add-mapping 202 "Ê") + (add-mapping 203 "Ë") + (add-mapping 204 "Ì") + (add-mapping 205 "Í") + (add-mapping 206 "Î") + (add-mapping 207 "Ï") + (add-mapping 208 "Ð") + (add-mapping 209 "Ñ") + (add-mapping 210 "Ò") + (add-mapping 211 "Ó") + (add-mapping 212 "Ô") + (add-mapping 213 "Õ") + (add-mapping 214 "Ö") + (add-mapping 215 "×") + (add-mapping 216 "Ø") + (add-mapping 217 "Ù") + (add-mapping 218 "Ú") + (add-mapping 219 "Û") + (add-mapping 220 "Ü") + (add-mapping 221 "Ý") + (add-mapping 222 "Þ") + (add-mapping 223 "ß") + (add-mapping 224 "à") + (add-mapping 225 "á") + (add-mapping 226 "â") + (add-mapping 227 "ã") + (add-mapping 228 "ä") + (add-mapping 229 "å") + (add-mapping 230 "æ") + (add-mapping 231 "ç") + (add-mapping 232 "è") + (add-mapping 233 "é") + (add-mapping 234 "ê") + (add-mapping 235 "ë") + (add-mapping 236 "ì") + (add-mapping 237 "í") + (add-mapping 238 "î") + (add-mapping 239 "ï") + (add-mapping 240 "ð") + (add-mapping 241 "ñ") + (add-mapping 242 "ò") + (add-mapping 243 "ó") + (add-mapping 244 "ô") + (add-mapping 245 "õ") + (add-mapping 246 "ö") + (add-mapping 247 "÷") + (add-mapping 248 "ø") + (add-mapping 249 "ù") + (add-mapping 250 "ú") + (add-mapping 251 "û") + (add-mapping 252 "ü") + (add-mapping 253 "ý") + (add-mapping 254 "þ") + (add-mapping 255 "ÿ") + (add-mapping 338 "Œ") + (add-mapping 339 "œ") + (add-mapping 352 "Š") + (add-mapping 353 "š") + (add-mapping 376 "Ÿ") + (add-mapping 402 "ƒ") + (add-mapping 710 "ˆ") + (add-mapping 732 "˜") + (add-mapping 913 "Α") + (add-mapping 914 "Β") + (add-mapping 915 "Γ") + (add-mapping 916 "Δ") + (add-mapping 917 "Ε") + (add-mapping 918 "Ζ") + (add-mapping 919 "Η") + (add-mapping 920 "Θ") + (add-mapping 921 "Ι") + (add-mapping 922 "Κ") + (add-mapping 923 "Λ") + (add-mapping 924 "Μ") + (add-mapping 925 "Ν") + (add-mapping 926 "Ξ") + (add-mapping 927 "Ο") + (add-mapping 928 "Π") + (add-mapping 929 "Ρ") + (add-mapping 931 "Σ") + (add-mapping 932 "Τ") + (add-mapping 933 "Υ") + (add-mapping 934 "Φ") + (add-mapping 935 "Χ") + (add-mapping 936 "Ψ") + (add-mapping 937 "Ω") + (add-mapping 945 "α") + (add-mapping 946 "β") + (add-mapping 947 "γ") + (add-mapping 948 "δ") + (add-mapping 949 "ε") + (add-mapping 950 "ζ") + (add-mapping 951 "η") + (add-mapping 952 "θ") + (add-mapping 953 "ι") + (add-mapping 954 "κ") + (add-mapping 955 "λ") + (add-mapping 956 "μ") + (add-mapping 957 "ν") + (add-mapping 958 "ξ") + (add-mapping 959 "ο") + (add-mapping 960 "π") + (add-mapping 961 "ρ") + (add-mapping 962 "ς") + (add-mapping 963 "σ") + (add-mapping 964 "τ") + (add-mapping 965 "υ") + (add-mapping 966 "φ") + (add-mapping 967 "χ") + (add-mapping 968 "ψ") + (add-mapping 969 "ω") + (add-mapping 977 "ϑ") + (add-mapping 978 "ϒ") + (add-mapping 982 "ϖ") + (add-mapping 8194 " ") + (add-mapping 8195 " ") + (add-mapping 8201 " ") + (add-mapping 8204 "‌") + (add-mapping 8205 "‍") + (add-mapping 8206 "‎") + (add-mapping 8207 "‏") + (add-mapping 8211 "–") + (add-mapping 8212 "—") + (add-mapping 8216 "‘") + (add-mapping 8217 "’") + (add-mapping 8218 "‚") + (add-mapping 8220 "“") + (add-mapping 8221 "”") + (add-mapping 8222 "„") + (add-mapping 8224 "†") + (add-mapping 8225 "‡") + (add-mapping 8226 "•") + (add-mapping 8230 "…") + (add-mapping 8240 "‰") + (add-mapping 8242 "′") + (add-mapping 8243 "″") + (add-mapping 8249 "‹") + (add-mapping 8250 "›") + (add-mapping 8254 "‾") + (add-mapping 8260 "⁄") + (add-mapping 8364 "€") + (add-mapping 8465 "ℑ") + (add-mapping 8472 "℘") + (add-mapping 8476 "ℜ") + (add-mapping 8482 "™") + (add-mapping 8501 "ℵ") + (add-mapping 8592 "←") + (add-mapping 8593 "↑") + (add-mapping 8594 "→") + (add-mapping 8595 "↓") + (add-mapping 8596 "↔") + (add-mapping 8629 "↵") + (add-mapping 8656 "⇐") + (add-mapping 8657 "⇑") + (add-mapping 8658 "⇒") + (add-mapping 8659 "⇓") + (add-mapping 8660 "⇔") + (add-mapping 8704 "∀") + (add-mapping 8706 "∂") + (add-mapping 8707 "∃") + (add-mapping 8709 "∅") + (add-mapping 8711 "∇") + (add-mapping 8712 "∈") + (add-mapping 8713 "∉") + (add-mapping 8715 "∋") + (add-mapping 8719 "∏") + (add-mapping 8721 "∑") + (add-mapping 8722 "−") + (add-mapping 8727 "∗") + (add-mapping 8730 "√") + (add-mapping 8733 "∝") + (add-mapping 8734 "∞") + (add-mapping 8736 "∠") + (add-mapping 8743 "∧") + (add-mapping 8744 "∨") + (add-mapping 8745 "∩") + (add-mapping 8746 "∪") + (add-mapping 8747 "∫") + (add-mapping 8756 "∴") + (add-mapping 8764 "∼") + (add-mapping 8773 "≅") + (add-mapping 8776 "≈") + (add-mapping 8800 "≠") + (add-mapping 8801 "≡") + (add-mapping 8804 "≤") + (add-mapping 8805 "≥") + (add-mapping 8834 "⊂") + (add-mapping 8835 "⊃") + (add-mapping 8836 "⊄") + (add-mapping 8838 "⊆") + (add-mapping 8839 "⊇") + (add-mapping 8853 "⊕") + (add-mapping 8855 "⊗") + (add-mapping 8869 "⊥") + (add-mapping 8901 "⋅") + (add-mapping 8968 "⌈") + (add-mapping 8969 "⌉") + (add-mapping 8970 "⌊") + (add-mapping 8971 "⌋") + (add-mapping 9001 "⟨") + (add-mapping 9002 "⟩") + (add-mapping 9674 "◊") + (add-mapping 9824 "♠") + (add-mapping 9827 "♣") + (add-mapping 9829 "♥") + (add-mapping 9830 "♦")) + ht)) (defparameter *html-entites* (make-html-entities)) +(defun numeric-html-entity-value (s) + (let ((len (length s))) + (and (> len 3) + (char-equal (char s 0) #\&) + (char-equal (char s 1) #\#) + (char-equal (char s (1- len)) #\;) + (if (char-equal (char s 2) #\x) + (and (every (lambda (ch) (digit-char-p ch 16)) + (subseq s 3 (1- len))) + (parse-integer s :start 3 :end (1- len) :radix 16)) + (and (every #'digit-char-p + (subseq s 2 (1- len))) + (parse-integer s :start 2 :end (1- len))))))) + (defun html-entity->char (entity &optional (default #\?)) (let ((res (gethash entity *html-entites*))) (if res (if (stringp res) (char res 0) res) - default))) + (aif (numeric-html-entity-value entity) + (code-char it) + default)))) (defun write-as-html (string &key (stream t) (escape-whitespace nil)) (loop From evrim at core.gen.tr Sun Apr 6 03:18:09 2008 From: evrim at core.gen.tr (evrim at core.gen.tr) Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:18:09 -0000 Subject: [Bese-devel] [Fwd: parenspeed] Message-ID: <3898.85.99.218.219.1202667043.squirrel@webmail.core.gen.tr> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: parenspeed From: evrim.ulu at core.gen.tr Date: Sun, February 10, 2008 8:05 pm To: aycan at core.gen.tr -------------------------------------------------------------------------- i was working on a new javascript compiler (compiled part is the render. Assume usual parenscript js interpreter: SERVER> (js ((lambda (a b) (if a (- a b) (+ a b))) 3 4)) "(function (a, b) { if (a) { a - b; } else { a + b; }; }) (3, 4);" New compiler: SERVER> (js+ ((lambda (a b) (if a (- a b) (+ a b))) 3 4)) inside LAMBDA-APPLICATION-FORM inside APPLICATION-FORM inside IF-FORM inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside APPLICATION-FORM inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside APPLICATION-FORM inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside LAMBDA-FUNCTION-FORM inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside VARIABLE-REFERENCE inside CONSTANT-FORM inside CONSTANT-FORM "(function (a,b) { if (a) { (a - b); } else { (a + b); } })(3,4);" SERVER> Let's check speed on quad.core.gen.tr: Parenscript results: SERVER> (time (loop for i from 0 upto 100000 do (js ((lambda (a b) (if a (- a b) (+ a b)) 3 4))))) Evaluation took: 17.282 seconds of real time 17.061066 seconds of user run time 0.48403 seconds of system run time [Run times include 2.025 seconds GC run time.] 0 calls to %EVAL 0 page faults and 3,441,972,576 bytes consed. NIL New compiler results: SERVER> (time (loop for i from 0 upto 100000 do (js+ ((lambda (a b) (if a (- a b) (+ a b)) 3 4))))) Evaluation took: 12.562 seconds of real time 12.508781 seconds of user run time 0.116007 seconds of system run time [Run times include 0.5 seconds GC run time.] 0 calls to %EVAL 0 page faults and 902,786,864 bytes consed. NIL Interestingly new compiler is fast. Also, mem usage is 2/3 or 3/4 decreased. Hope to implement indentation and more tests. Evrim. From Blog at common-lisp.net Sun Apr 6 03:43:12 2008 From: Blog at common-lisp.net (Blog at common-lisp.net) Date: 06 Apr 2008 11:43:12 +0800 Subject: [Bese-devel] How would you like to have your ad on 2 Million Websites ? Message-ID: <20080406114312.0345D16DA0D06984@from.header.has.no.domain> How would you like 2 Million Sites linking to your ad ? Weblog or blog population is exploding around the world, resembling the growth of e-mail users in the 1990s. Post your ads where people read them! - What if you could place your ad on all these sites ? Right, that would mean you would have millions of sites linking to your ad. For Full details please read the attached .html file Unsubscribe Please read the attached .txt file -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Unsubscribe email.txt URL: From ctdean at sokitomi.com Tue Apr 8 01:25:12 2008 From: ctdean at sokitomi.com (Chris Dean) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:25:12 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] arnesi io patch Message-ID: Below is a patch for more element-type support in read-string-from-file. Cheers, Chris Dean --- old-arnesi_dev/src/io.lisp 2008-04-07 18:22:40.000000000 -0700 +++ new-arnesi_dev/src/io.lisp 2008-04-07 18:22:40.000000000 -0700 @@ -59,8 +59,10 @@ ENCODING-KEYWORD-TO-NATIVE, see ENCODING-KEYWORD-TO-NATIVE to possible values." (with-input-from-file - (file-stream pathname :external-format (encoding-keyword-to-native external-format)) - (with-output-to-string (datum) + (file-stream pathname + :element-type element-type + :external-format (encoding-keyword-to-native external-format)) + (with-output-to-string (datum nil :element-type element-type) (let ((buffer (make-array buffer-size :element-type element-type))) (loop for bytes-read = (read-sequence buffer file-stream) do (write-sequence buffer datum :start 0 :end bytes-read) From Top at common-lisp.net Fri Apr 11 08:05:00 2008 From: Top at common-lisp.net (Top at common-lisp.net) Date: 11 Apr 2008 01:05:00 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] 1000s Of Hits From Google, Yahoo, MSN And Others At $0 Cost To You ! Message-ID: <20080411010459.1CF91A767691BFE7@from.header.has.no.domain> Hi, my name is Sebastian Foss. 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Name: Unsubscribe email.txt URL: From Targeted at common-lisp.net Mon Apr 14 08:11:57 2008 From: Targeted at common-lisp.net (Targeted at common-lisp.net) Date: 14 Apr 2008 01:11:57 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] How would you like unlimited hits to your website 15 minutes from now ? Message-ID: <20080414011157.F9609251D49FF0A4@from.header.has.no.domain> No Matter what you are selling - Hit-Booster will send targeted visitors to your website! Within 15 minutes you will have your own website traffic generator that will bring in an ever increasing amount of hits to your websites! Automatically This software is perfect for bringing real traffic to your site... even if... it's an affiliate link where you have no control over the website content! 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URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Unsubscribe email.txt URL: From Blog at common-lisp.net Thu Apr 17 10:17:26 2008 From: Blog at common-lisp.net (Blog at common-lisp.net) Date: 17 Apr 2008 18:17:26 +0800 Subject: [Bese-devel] How would you like to have your ad on 2 Million Websites ? Message-ID: <20080417181726.AD4967D557DF1075@from.header.has.no.domain> How would you like 2 Million Sites linking to your ad ? Weblog or blog population is exploding around the world, resembling the growth of e-mail users in the 1990s. Post your ads where people read them! - What if you could place your ad on all these sites ? Right, that would mean you would have millions of sites linking to your ad. For Full details please read the attached .html file Unsubscribe Please read the attached .txt file -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Unsubscribe email.txt URL: From sasha-lisp at arcocene.org Sat Apr 19 05:58:02 2008 From: sasha-lisp at arcocene.org (Sasha Kovar) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 22:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bese-devel] darcs patch: add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node Message-ID: <20080419055803.060D210A95@toonlet.com> Fri Apr 18 22:56:00 PDT 2008 Sasha Kovar * add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: add-safari-support-to-import_ajax_received_xhtml_node.dpatch Type: text/x-darcs-patch Size: 33659 bytes Desc: A darcs patch for your repository! URL: From sasha-lisp at arcocene.org Sat Apr 19 06:07:52 2008 From: sasha-lisp at arcocene.org (Sasha Kovar) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:07:52 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] darcs patch: add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node In-Reply-To: <20080419055803.060D210A95@toonlet.com> References: <20080419055803.060D210A95@toonlet.com> Message-ID: <20080419060752.GV53774@arcocene.org> .-- Sasha Kovar: | * add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node Sorry, that got away from me. A little context, perhaps: Using ucw_ajax, ajax dom-replacement was failing for the Safari browser. A little one-line fix makes it right. Please consider for inclusion in the main tree. Thanks much, Sasha From attila.lendvai at gmail.com Sat Apr 19 21:50:31 2008 From: attila.lendvai at gmail.com (Attila Lendvai) Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2008 23:50:31 +0200 Subject: [Bese-devel] darcs patch: add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node In-Reply-To: <20080419060752.GV53774@arcocene.org> References: <20080419055803.060D210A95@toonlet.com> <20080419060752.GV53774@arcocene.org> Message-ID: > | * add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node great, thanks! pushed. -- attila From mbaringer at common-lisp.net Sun Apr 20 04:30:34 2008 From: mbaringer at common-lisp.net (Marco Baringer) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Bese-devel] New patches to ucw_ajax: 19-Apr-2008 Message-ID: <20080420043034.5105F7209D@common-lisp.net> Sat Apr 19 01:56:00 EDT 2008 Sasha Kovar * add safari support to import-ajax-received-xhtml-node M ./src/per-application-parenscript.lisp -1 +1 An updated tarball of ucw_ajax's source can be downloaded here: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/tarballs/ucw_ajax-20080419.tar.gz Darcsweb URL: http://uncommon-web.com/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=ucw_ajax;a=summary From Instant at common-lisp.net Sat Apr 26 11:49:02 2008 From: Instant at common-lisp.net (Instant at common-lisp.net) Date: 26 Apr 2008 19:49:02 +0800 Subject: [Bese-devel] Can you afford to lose 300, 000 potential customers per year ? Message-ID: <20080426194902.8C101B0A59BC2340@from.header.has.no.domain> Can you afford to lose 300,000 potential customers per year ? How would You like to divert 1000s of fresh, new visitors daily to Your web site or affiliate web site from Google, Yahoo, MSN and others At $0 cost to you...? ...iNSTANT BOOSTER diverts 1000s of fresh, new visitors daily to Your web site or affiliate web site from Google, Yahoo, MSN and others at $0 cost to you! ...No matter what you are selling or offering - INTSANT BOOSTER will pull in hordes of potential customers to your website - instantly! For Full Details Please read the attached .html file Unsubscribe: Please read the attached .txt file -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Unsubscribe email.txt URL: From Instant at common-lisp.net Sat Apr 26 13:07:03 2008 From: Instant at common-lisp.net (Instant at common-lisp.net) Date: 26 Apr 2008 21:07:03 +0800 Subject: [Bese-devel] Can you afford to lose 300, 000 potential customers per year ? Message-ID: <20080426210703.080B8E9F5863E16D@from.header.has.no.domain> Can you afford to lose 300,000 potential customers per year ? How would You like to divert 1000s of fresh, new visitors daily to Your web site or affiliate web site from Google, Yahoo, MSN and others At $0 cost to you...? ...iNSTANT BOOSTER diverts 1000s of fresh, new visitors daily to Your web site or affiliate web site from Google, Yahoo, MSN and others at $0 cost to you! ...No matter what you are selling or offering - INTSANT BOOSTER will pull in hordes of potential customers to your website - instantly! For Full Details Please read the attached .html file Unsubscribe: Please read the attached .txt file -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: Unsubscribe email.txt URL: From mbaringer at common-lisp.net Mon Apr 28 04:00:21 2008 From: mbaringer at common-lisp.net (Marco Baringer) Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Bese-devel] New patches to arnesi_dev: 27-Apr-2008 Message-ID: <20080428040021.0CA8F2001D@common-lisp.net> Sun Apr 27 06:25:05 EDT 2008 asf at boinkor.net * Replace #\u character with something slightly more portable M ./src/string.lisp -1 +1 An updated tarball of arnesi_dev's source can be downloaded here: http://common-lisp.net/project/bese/tarballs/arnesi_dev-20080427.tar.gz Darcsweb URL: http://uncommon-web.com/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=arnesi_dev;a=summary From drewc at tech.coop Tue Apr 29 21:52:58 2008 From: drewc at tech.coop (Drew Crampsie) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:52:58 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. Message-ID: Hello UCW users/developers, The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. We've got one of the most advanced web application development environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more widely usable. 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a lot more professional. 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used in the base library. 3) An effort will be made to maintain a coding style consistent with that of the larger lisp community, as well as internally consistent. 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features will be added unless documented and tested. 5) modularization will be more explicit. I added a patch a while ago to allow a more 'plugin' like architecture, and this will be exploited. component libraries, form libraries etc will not be part of UCW proper as there are many possible implementations. Rather, a good flexible modular architecture will let the user choose to mix and match higher level code, be it Lisp-on-Lines, ucw-ajax, or what-have-you. 6) Javascript will _not_be required, but will be well supported. A 'simple' set of ucw operators will be introduced and used for the examples and documentation. I have great plans for UCW over the next couple months. I'd like to ask everybody who reads this to chime in now and say your piece... lets make UCW the poster-boy for lisp web frameworks! Cheers, drewc From drewc at tech.coop Fri Apr 25 07:52:39 2008 From: drewc at tech.coop (Drew Crampsie) Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 00:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] PATCHES: Make choice of session frame type dynamic, and ensure callbacks are executed in order submitted unless otherwise specified. Message-ID: Hey All. A couple patches. The first is non-controversial. The second may break code that relies on callbacks having negative priorities executing before those with priority 0.. hopefully nobody is doing that. If so, there are other approaches. Regardless, i think that the correct behavior is to execute the callbacks in order... it just seems right to me, and i have code that depends on it. Cheers, drewc -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: usability.patch Type: text/x-patch Size: 34352 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tritchey at paragent.com Tue Apr 29 23:41:32 2008 From: tritchey at paragent.com (Timothy Ritchey) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 19:41:32 -0400 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <901B78F6-2B65-4670-91F3-D91E8072A38F@paragent.com> First, thank you very much for taking this on Drew. We use UCW pretty actively at , as well as for custom web applications for clients of . In all cases, we have stuck with ucw_dev. That is what Tim Jasko started using when we started coding Paragent.com a couple years ago, and we have not really felt any incentive to make the leap for _ajax. My only personal desire is to have a UCW that is asdf-install aware (or whatever the Lisp deployment system du jour happens to be - people seem to be talking about clbuild recently). Maybe it is just me, but the whole boxset, start.lisp, etc. etc. seems a little overly complex, not to mention the issue with deploying so many third-party libraries within UCW itself, and the maintenance nightmare that creates. Just my $0.02. Cheers, Tim R. On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Drew Crampsie wrote: > Hello UCW users/developers, > > The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. > We've got one of the most advanced web application development > environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, > underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this > situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've > volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. > > I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what > versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd > like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in > following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more > widely usable. > > 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results > included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically > all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps > to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a > lot more professional. > > 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used > in the base library. > > 3) An effort will be made to maintain a coding style consistent with > that of the larger lisp community, as well as internally consistent. > > 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features > will be added unless documented and tested. > > 5) modularization will be more explicit. I added a patch a while ago > to allow a more 'plugin' like architecture, and this will be > exploited. component libraries, form libraries etc will not be part of > UCW proper as there are many possible implementations. Rather, a good > flexible modular architecture will let the user choose to mix and > match higher level code, be it Lisp-on-Lines, ucw-ajax, or > what-have-you. > > 6) Javascript will _not_be required, but will be well supported. A > 'simple' set of ucw operators will be introduced and used for the > examples and documentation. > > I have great plans for UCW over the next couple months. I'd like to > ask everybody who reads this to chime in now and say your piece... > lets make UCW the poster-boy for lisp web frameworks! > > Cheers, > > drewc > _______________________________________________ > bese-devel mailing list > bese-devel at common-lisp.net > http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bese-devel From hbabcock at mac.com Wed Apr 30 02:58:06 2008 From: hbabcock at mac.com (Hazen Babcock) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:58:06 -0400 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Drew Crampsie wrote: > Hello UCW users/developers, > > The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. > We've got one of the most advanced web application development > environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, > underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this > situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've > volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. > > I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what > versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd > like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in > following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more > widely usable. I use it at work to write the occasional web application. These applications are only for internal use and are primarily for data analysis. I use -dev and http backend with Apache. I've found this to work quite well for what I need to do. Also, thanks Drew! It's great to see some renewed interest in this project. best, -Hazen From vagif at cox.net Wed Apr 30 03:45:15 2008 From: vagif at cox.net (Vagif Verdi) Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 20:45:15 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080430034518.SXRD9874.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo01.cox.net> Great news! One of the main reasons I'm not using ucw, although I tried many times, is the lack of documentation. And all tutorials you will find there are outdated. This is the main reason I believe, why ucw did not see wide adoption it deserves. -----Original Message----- From: bese-devel-bounces at common-lisp.net [mailto:bese-devel-bounces at common-lisp.net] On Behalf Of Drew Crampsie Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:53 PM To: bese-devel at common-lisp.net Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. Hello UCW users/developers, The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. We've got one of the most advanced web application development environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more widely usable. 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a lot more professional. 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used in the base library. 3) An effort will be made to maintain a coding style consistent with that of the larger lisp community, as well as internally consistent. 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features will be added unless documented and tested. 5) modularization will be more explicit. I added a patch a while ago to allow a more 'plugin' like architecture, and this will be exploited. component libraries, form libraries etc will not be part of UCW proper as there are many possible implementations. Rather, a good flexible modular architecture will let the user choose to mix and match higher level code, be it Lisp-on-Lines, ucw-ajax, or what-have-you. 6) Javascript will _not_be required, but will be well supported. A 'simple' set of ucw operators will be introduced and used for the examples and documentation. I have great plans for UCW over the next couple months. I'd like to ask everybody who reads this to chime in now and say your piece... lets make UCW the poster-boy for lisp web frameworks! Cheers, drewc _______________________________________________ bese-devel mailing list bese-devel at common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bese-devel From Holger.Schauer at gmx.de Wed Apr 30 06:59:18 2008 From: Holger.Schauer at gmx.de (Holger Schauer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:59:18 +0200 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080430065918.153470@gmx.net> Hi there, -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. > We've got one of the most advanced web application development > environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, > underdocumented and a bit of a mess. Wow. And I thought that this surely must only be my outside(r) view. First of all, thanks for stepping up and also for stating these guidelines. > I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what > versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd > like to see happen to the project. I'm using -dev for a little private app. I don't feel confident enough of my knowledge of UCW, the project as a whole, to post any suggestions where it should move, but your stated goals sure look sensible to me. > 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used > in the base library. Not having such a guideline is one of the major reasons that keeps me from looking closer at other solutions. > 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features > will be added unless documented and tested. The main problem with the current documentation is that there is no explanation how the various bits fit together. Docstring extraction is a nice thing, but it's only one part of "documentation". Currently I have no time to do any lisp hacking at all, but if ucw starts moving, I'll try to follow up. I'm curious in which branch development will take place. To me, it looks like there's a lot of cleaning work to do. Holger PS: I'm currently learning Zope and it's really a mind-twisting experience to see how different the two frameworks are. -- --- http://hillview.bugwriter.net/ --- "(declare (tolerate-programmer-stupidity -3))" -- Wade Humeniuk in comp.lang.lisp Psst! Geheimtipp: Online Games kostenlos spielen bei den GMX Free Games! http://games.entertainment.gmx.net/de/entertainment/games/free From thomas.elam at wipro.com Wed Apr 30 07:39:05 2008 From: thomas.elam at wipro.com (thomas.elam at wipro.com) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:09:05 +0530 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the great news, Drew! I used ucw-ajax 2 years ago for over half a year and loved it. I created AJAX-based buttons overlaying an image so the end-user could get and set some information related to employee's workstations on a particular floor of a building by `calling' a new component containing tables and textareas -- and returning results to the `calling' component. Linear coding based on Web continuations! I'm sold! The user could view maps of different floors at the same time, each in its own Dojo tab. He could also view the results of my very flexible and simple queries from an Elephant persistent-object database (on top of bdb) in a Dojo SortableTable rendered in other Dojo tab. This was all at a time when Dojo would have been at its 0.4 release level, I think. I am still very interested in UCW and might use it in my current project. (I also want to see whether and how it is possible to do Web continuations using client-side closures, perhaps obviating UCW.) I volunteered and worked a tiny bit on Ties Stuij's `UCW Intro' (http://trac.common-lisp.net/ucw/wiki/UcwIntro), but I don't know if any of my words are still there. I hereby volunteer to help you with some writing work. I don't consider myself a Lisp wizard, though. Navigating UCW's code and examples was a bit tough for me last time I looked. Regards, Tom -----Original Message----- From: bese-devel-bounces at common-lisp.net [mailto:bese-devel-bounces at common-lisp.net] On Behalf Of Drew Crampsie Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 3:23 AM To: bese-devel at common-lisp.net Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. Hello UCW users/developers, The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. We've got one of the most advanced web application development environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more widely usable. 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a lot more professional. 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used in the base library. 3) An effort will be made to maintain a coding style consistent with that of the larger lisp community, as well as internally consistent. 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features will be added unless documented and tested. 5) modularization will be more explicit. I added a patch a while ago to allow a more 'plugin' like architecture, and this will be exploited. component libraries, form libraries etc will not be part of UCW proper as there are many possible implementations. Rather, a good flexible modular architecture will let the user choose to mix and match higher level code, be it Lisp-on-Lines, ucw-ajax, or what-have-you. 6) Javascript will _not_be required, but will be well supported. A 'simple' set of ucw operators will be introduced and used for the examples and documentation. I have great plans for UCW over the next couple months. I'd like to ask everybody who reads this to chime in now and say your piece... lets make UCW the poster-boy for lisp web frameworks! Cheers, drewc _______________________________________________ bese-devel mailing list bese-devel at common-lisp.net http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bese-devel Please do not print this email unless it is absolutely necessary. The information contained in this electronic message and any attachments to this message are intended for the exclusive use of the addressee(s) and may contain proprietary, confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately and destroy all copies of this message and any attachments. WARNING: Computer viruses can be transmitted via email. The recipient should check this email and any attachments for the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email. www.wipro.com From attila.lendvai at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 07:39:37 2008 From: attila.lendvai at gmail.com (Attila Lendvai) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:39:37 +0200 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi! i'm taking my branch in a direction that probably many won't like. i'm dropping the backend abstraction, replacing dispatchers with a lambda based solution, moving it to iolib-only, to the factored out cl-delico/cl-walker, dropping arnesi dependency in favor of alexandria, moving xml and js generation to http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/ to list a few... so i've agreed to Drew to leave alone the UCW name and give some new name to my branch. but my primary focus for now is to fulfill our own requirements, not to advertise the stuff. meanwhile it will be laying around in a repo among the cl-dwim darcs repos. happy hacking, -- attila From matley at muppetslab.org Wed Apr 30 09:12:20 2008 From: matley at muppetslab.org (Luigi Panzeri) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:12:20 +0200 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: (Drew Crampsie's message of "Tue\, 29 Apr 2008 14\:52\:58 -0700") References: Message-ID: "Drew Crampsie" writes: > > I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what > versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd > like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in > following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more > widely usable. > I am using ucw-dev for an intranet application (hey, I am just recognizing that it has been up&running for 3 years, like a champ). > 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results > included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically > all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps > to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a > lot more professional. > +1. That's cool. I am stuck with an older version of ucw because an upgrade will break my code. > 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used > in the base library. > -1. i don't see any problem in having them as they are documented. > 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features > will be added unless documented and tested. > +1. Furthermore, I think that ucw (-dev, -ajax) needs more explained examples (updated and working) such that users can discover all the features provided. > > I have great plans for UCW over the next couple months. I'd like to > ask everybody who reads this to chime in now and say your piece... > lets make UCW the poster-boy for lisp web frameworks! > Great! Cheers -- Luigi Panzeri aka Matley Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film Quotes on Lisp: http://lispers.org/ From attila.lendvai at gmail.com Wed Apr 30 09:29:56 2008 From: attila.lendvai at gmail.com (Attila Lendvai) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 11:29:56 +0200 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used > > in the base library. > > -1. i don't see any problem in having them as they are documented. really, by whom? :) we (cl-dwim) don't belive in writing doc for our (lisp) code, except a bird's view. (but we do believe in excessive test suites and spending the time on making the code more readable instead) i've patched numerous projects, but it's very rare that i feel the urge to look at the documentation, and those situations are either because the code is chaotic, or because the problem at hand is really complex. anyways, in the lights of these, i'm really surprised any material you can find there is considered as documentation... :) -- attila From evrim at core.gen.tr Wed Apr 30 10:48:34 2008 From: evrim at core.gen.tr (Evrim Ulu) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:48:34 +0300 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48184E82.1000909@core.gen.tr> Drew Crampsie wrote: > Hello UCW users/developers, > > The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. > We've got one of the most advanced web application development > environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, > underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this > situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've > volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. > I wonder what Marco thinks. Long time no see. Evrim. From mb at bese.it Wed Apr 30 13:12:10 2008 From: mb at bese.it (Marco Baringer) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:12:10 +0200 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: <48184E82.1000909@core.gen.tr> (Evrim Ulu's message of "Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:48:34 +0300") References: <48184E82.1000909@core.gen.tr> Message-ID: <873ap37ahh.fsf@arsenic.bese.it> Evrim Ulu writes: > Drew Crampsie wrote: >> Hello UCW users/developers, >> >> The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. >> We've got one of the most advanced web application development >> environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, >> underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this >> situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've >> volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. you rock. > I wonder what Marco thinks. Long time no see. Marco got a great job (lisp, steady pay, good people, etc.) which, unfortunetely, doesn't leave any time for UCW work. He was really sad when, a few months ago, it looked UCW would slowly fade into oblivion. Marco is really happy that UCW, which he still thinks is totally awesome, will live on. He'll do what he can to help and wishes drew the best of luck. Marco would also like to thank attila for all the work he's put into UCW over the past years and wishes him the best of luck on his new branch (had it not been for attila i'm not sure UCW would have lasted long enough for drew to breath new life into it). happy hacking, -- -Marco Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. -Leonard Cohen From sasha-lisp at arcocene.org Wed Apr 30 19:31:58 2008 From: sasha-lisp at arcocene.org (Sasha Kovar) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:31:58 -0700 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080430193158.GC22004@arcocene.org> Hi. Another data point: toonlet.com is running ucw_ajax. Other keywords: SBCL, GNU/Linux, mod_lisp, apache2, and a whole ton of other lisp libraries. I'm excited for more interest and shepherding of UCW. I think it's a great framework and I'd love to see it continue to develop. I think the barrier to more widespread adoption is the lack of a clear path to getting it running. Having a clearly recommended branch with a good quick start guide would have made my first steps a lot easier. After that, playing with the examples was fine for getting up to speed. But I'm not here to criticise... | 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results | included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically | all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps | to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a | lot more professional. Can't argue with that! | 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used | in the base library. This wouldn't bother me either way. I've been introduced to some great utils through reading UCW's source, but I wouldn't cry if a more vanilla lisp style were used. | 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features | will be added unless documented and tested. Love those tests! Aside from the obvious, it's guaranteed up-to-date example code that has helped me understand how to use UCW. | 5) modularization will be more explicit. I added a patch a while ago | to allow a more 'plugin' like architecture, and this will be | exploited. component libraries, form libraries etc will not be part of | UCW proper as there are many possible implementations. Rather, a good | flexible modular architecture will let the user choose to mix and | match higher level code, be it Lisp-on-Lines, ucw-ajax, or | what-have-you. Excellent. This should allow the unification of the various branches as well as making learning and using UCW more piecewise, with less to digest at a time. I'd love to help with any small or simple tasks that come up. Hopefully I can find places to be of use. Thanks to Marco, Drew, Attila, and everyone else who helped with UCW! Sasha From burban at opopop.net Wed Apr 30 21:52:33 2008 From: burban at opopop.net (burban at opopop.net) Date: 30 Apr 2008 21:52:33 +0000 Subject: [Bese-devel] UCW: The Future. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87r6cnau3i.fsf@default.opopop.net> "Drew Crampsie" writes: > Hello UCW users/developers, > > The UCW project has been without direction for quite a while now. > We've got one of the most advanced web application development True I believe. > environments out there, but it's not used widely, unstable, Unstable? That I didn't experience with the simple things I have done (see http://lisp.opopop.net). > underdocumented and a bit of a mess. In order to alleviate this Lack of more complete tutorials and documentation about how the pieces work together explains probably a lot about UCW limited acceptance so far. I found also the libraries used as lacking with regard to documentation. > situation, and to bring UCW into the mainstream lisp web world, I've > volunteered to step in as maintainer/visionary. Good to hear that! > I'd like to find out who's using UCW, how they are using it, what > versions they are using (-dev, -ajax, -something-else) and what they'd > like to see happen to the project. I'm going to be very aggressive in > following a few ideals/guidlines for UCW that should make it more > widely usable. I use: latest ucw-boxset, ajax version, apache2 with mod_lisp and sbcl. > 1) No arbitrary breaking. The test suite will be run and its results > included in every commit message. the API will not change drastically > all the time. Libraries will not be added/removed without taking steps > to make sure things work. A buildbot will be setup. UCW will become a > lot more professional. > > 2) No reader macros, defclass*, cl-def or other 'syntax' will be used > in the base library. > > 3) An effort will be made to maintain a coding style consistent with > that of the larger lisp community, as well as internally consistent. > > 4) documentation will be written, and maintained. Now new features > will be added unless documented and tested. > > 5) modularization will be more explicit. I added a patch a while ago > to allow a more 'plugin' like architecture, and this will be > exploited. component libraries, form libraries etc will not be part of > UCW proper as there are many possible implementations. Rather, a good > flexible modular architecture will let the user choose to mix and > match higher level code, be it Lisp-on-Lines, ucw-ajax, or > what-have-you. > > 6) Javascript will _not_be required, but will be well supported. A > 'simple' set of ucw operators will be introduced and used for the > examples and documentation. I think of the above, 1) and 4) are the most important. Next is 5), and I am agnostic about 2), 3) and 6). Regards. -- B. Urban