From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Sat Nov  1 00:58:35 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 01:58:35 +0100
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <20031031221613.GA681@random-state.net>
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<20031031221613.GA681@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <fzsml8rjk4.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2003 at 05:29:39PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:
> 
> > Absolutely!  How about http://common-lisp.net/article/ and a nice index
> > of articles+authors there?  Like Eric Marsden pointed out on IRC the
> 
> Sounds perfect!

It indeed sounds cool.

Regards,
        Mario.




From csr21 at cam.ac.uk  Sat Nov  1 08:36:37 2003
From: csr21 at cam.ac.uk (Christophe Rhodes)
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:36:37 +0000
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <018565D0-0BF7-11D8-B891-000A9599AF88@cs.indiana.edu> (Brian
	Mastenbrook's message of "Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:07:31 -0500")
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.129.1067639527.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8v1ypop.fsf@prium.net>
	<018565D0-0BF7-11D8-B891-000A9599AF88@cs.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <sqvfq4pjsa.fsf@lambda.jcn.srcf.net>

Brian Mastenbrook <bmastenb at cs.indiana.edu> writes:

>> How should we do this to make it most convenient for authors to submit
>> their articles?  How about:
>>
>>   1) author sends article to admin at common-lisp.net
>
> I would be willing to hack up a web submission form using araneida.

Features that I would like to see in an article system are:

* ability to store multiple revisions of articles, and retrieve any of
  the versions (for bonus points, also a diff); revision tracking;

* ability to retrieve articles in multiple formats (TeX/Docbook
  source, html, postscript) if the source that the author submits
  permits easy conversion;

also probably other stuff.  To interested parties, I suggest having a
look at <http://www.arXiv.org/> (though I'm sure we're unlikely to
have to scale to their level in the short term, having some of their
features for the end-user would be nice).

Cheers,

Christophe
-- 
http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/       +44 1223 510 299/+44 7729 383 757
(set-pprint-dispatch 'number (lambda (s o) (declare (special b)) (format s b)))
(defvar b "~&Just another Lisp hacker~%")    (pprint #36rJesusCollegeCambridge)



From eenge at prium.net  Sun Nov  2 13:44:09 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Sun,  2 Nov 2003 08:44:09 -0500
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <20031031230716.GB681@random-state.net>
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.129.1067639527.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8v1ypop.fsf@prium.net> <20031031230716.GB681@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <1067780649.3fa50a299d0ac@mail.prium.net>

Quoting Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net>:

> I think I'd prefer just getting article submissions, and then
> dealing with them.

Ok, so that's how we'll do it unless someone else can think of a
better way: send your articles to admin at common-lisp.net (I don't
think we'll be flooded) once they are done and we'll upload them.

Please do consider coming up with a semi-unified layout, though.

Erik.





From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov  3 13:16:11 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 08:16:11 -0500
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <mailman.135.1067675798.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Christophe
	Rhodes's message of "Sat, 01 Nov 2003 08:36:37 +0000")
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.129.1067639527.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8v1ypop.fsf@prium.net>
	<018565D0-0BF7-11D8-B891-000A9599AF88@cs.indiana.edu>
	<mailman.135.1067675798.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87u15la8ys.fsf@prium.net>

Christophe Rhodes <csr21 at cam.ac.uk> writes:

> * ability to store multiple revisions of articles, and retrieve any of
> the versions (for bonus points, also a diff); revision tracking;

It occurs to me that CVS will do this so perhaps we could store the
articles in CVS but not let authors have direct write privileges.

> * ability to retrieve articles in multiple formats (TeX/Docbook
> source, html, postscript) if the source that the author submits
> permits easy conversion;

Can cl-typesetting output to any of these formats in addition to PDF?

Erik.



From kw at w-m-p.com  Mon Nov  3 16:31:00 2003
From: kw at w-m-p.com (Klaus Weidner)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 10:31:00 -0600
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <87u15la8ys.fsf@prium.net>
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.129.1067639527.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8v1ypop.fsf@prium.net>
	<018565D0-0BF7-11D8-B891-000A9599AF88@cs.indiana.edu>
	<mailman.135.1067675798.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87u15la8ys.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031103163100.GA12579@w-m-p.com>

On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 08:16:11AM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:
> Christophe Rhodes <csr21 at cam.ac.uk> writes:
> > * ability to retrieve articles in multiple formats (TeX/Docbook
> > source, html, postscript) if the source that the author submits
> > permits easy conversion;
> 
> Can cl-typesetting output to any of these formats in addition to PDF?

That's IMHO the wrong way around - the question should be which of these
formats you can use as *input* to cl-typesetting [1]. The concept of
typesetting doesn't really make sense for HTML output [2].

Converting the cl-typesetting PDF output to PostScript is trivial, but
PDF is probably more useful anyway.

-Klaus

[1] in a future version - the current one is an (impressive) proof of
concept using Lisp as the input language. You'd need to write a
conversion layer to accept other input formats.

[2] unless you create the document as a huge table with pixel-sized cells
that you render into :-)



From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Mon Nov  3 19:24:49 2003
From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 11:24:49 -0800
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <20031103163100.GA12579@w-m-p.com>
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.129.1067639527.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8v1ypop.fsf@prium.net>
	<018565D0-0BF7-11D8-B891-000A9599AF88@cs.indiana.edu>
	<mailman.135.1067675798.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87u15la8ys.fsf@prium.net> <20031103163100.GA12579@w-m-p.com>
Message-ID: <16294.43905.677923.821436@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>

Klaus Weidner writes:
 > On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 08:16:11AM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:
 > > Christophe Rhodes <csr21 at cam.ac.uk> writes:
 > > > * ability to retrieve articles in multiple formats (TeX/Docbook
 > > > source, html, postscript) if the source that the author submits
 > > > permits easy conversion;
 > > 
 > > Can cl-typesetting output to any of these formats in addition to PDF?
 > 
 > That's IMHO the wrong way around - the question should be which of these
 > formats you can use as *input* to cl-typesetting [1]. The concept of
 > typesetting doesn't really make sense for HTML output [2].

I think the basic idea for cl-typesetting is to have three layers:

  input formats  ==>  typesetting engine  ==>  ouput formats
    sexp                cl-typsetting            cl-pdf
    tex-like                                     postscript
    ...                                          HTML
                                                 ...

So if something is written in a cl-typesetting input format, it should
be possible to get it in any of the output formats.  Obviously it's
currently pre-alpha, but certainly what's in the list above is planned.

 > [2] unless you create the document as a huge table with pixel-sized cells
 > that you render into :-)

I disagree.  You can't actually do too much micro-setting, but if you
target HTML-with-css, you can at least do typesetting in the large.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               



From kw at w-m-p.com  Mon Nov  3 20:15:15 2003
From: kw at w-m-p.com (Klaus Weidner)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 14:15:15 -0600
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: Rebel With A Cause
In-Reply-To: <16294.43905.677923.821436@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
References: <0E75F5B1-0BEC-11D8-AE2C-00039344B8E8@beta9.be>
	<1067637994.22351.6.camel@car> <874qxp11nw.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.129.1067639527.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8v1ypop.fsf@prium.net>
	<018565D0-0BF7-11D8-B891-000A9599AF88@cs.indiana.edu>
	<mailman.135.1067675798.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87u15la8ys.fsf@prium.net> <20031103163100.GA12579@w-m-p.com>
	<16294.43905.677923.821436@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <20031103201515.GA15092@w-m-p.com>

On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 11:24:49AM -0800, Thomas F. Burdick wrote:
> I think the basic idea for cl-typesetting is to have three layers:
> 
>   input formats  ==>  typesetting engine  ==>  ouput formats
>     sexp                cl-typsetting            cl-pdf
>     tex-like                                     postscript
>     ...                                          HTML
>                                                  ...
> 
> So if something is written in a cl-typesetting input format, it should
> be possible to get it in any of the output formats.  Obviously it's
> currently pre-alpha, but certainly what's in the list above is planned.

I think I see what you mean - it would be useful to have an engine that
could for example create an HTML document containing an automatically
generated table of contents, index, cross-references and so on, and to
use CSS to provide an approximation of the intended print layout.

I'm currently doing something similar for documents that I'm maintaining;
I'm editing them in Perl's POD format (which is pleasant to edit due to
containing only a minimal amout of markup, i.e. making something italic
takes 3 characters I<foo>, compared to HTML's 7 characters <i>foo</i> and
LaTeX's 9 characters \textit{foo}). Since the pod2html converter doesn't
do a good job with section numbering and the table of contents, I'm using
pod2latex as an intermediate step and then latex2html to get the output I
want.

This is duplicated code since both LaTeX and latex2html need to parse the
TeX macros to generate the information they need. In a Lisp solution it
would be much easier to abstract out the intermediate interface here.

The layer to do that doesn't exist in cl-typesetting yet, and I'd see it
as a fairly separate thing that should be abstracted out instead of being
commingled as it is in LaTeX:

input formats ==> logical markup     ==> typesetting   ==> output formats
  sexp             table of contents     pdf:               pdf
  tex-like         index                   pagination
  docbook          section numbers         page# xrefs
  html             image/table numbers     graphical output
  POD              footnotes             html:              HTML
  ...              ...                     split into files
                                           internal hyperlinks
					   style sheet
					   text output
					                    plain text
							    ...

It's a matter of terminology where you draw the border between these
stages.

I'd love to take a crack at the "logical markup" phase if I can find some
time in my schedule (or a clone)...

-Klaus



From erik-nittin at imeme.net  Sun Nov  2 13:35:34 2003
From: erik-nittin at imeme.net (erik-nittin at imeme.net)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:35:34 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
Message-ID: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>

Description: `irc' is a CL IRC client library.  It is fully functional
and could be used right away.  Some bugs are probably still lurking around
but I've been IRCing from my REPL for a few days now without problem.

License: MIT style
Name: irc
Members: me.

It currently is only well-tested under SBCL but it has the socket code
it needs for other major implementations and the rest of the code should
be fairly straightforward ANSI CL.

Erik.





From nikodemus at random-state.net  Sun Nov  2 15:14:22 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 17:14:22 +0200
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
In-Reply-To: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
References: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
Message-ID: <20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>

On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 01:35:34PM -0000, erik-nittin at imeme.net wrote:

> Description: `irc' is a CL IRC client library.  It is fully functional
> and could be used right away.  Some bugs are probably still lurking around
> but I've been IRCing from my REPL for a few days now without problem.

Much approval.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Mon Nov  3 09:04:19 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:04:19 +0100
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
In-Reply-To: <20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>
References: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
	<20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <fzk76hhlgs.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:
> On Sun, Nov 02, 2003 at 01:35:34PM -0000, erik-nittin at imeme.net wrote:
> 
> > Description: `irc' is a CL IRC client library.  It is fully functional
> > and could be used right away.  Some bugs are probably still lurking around
> > but I've been IRCing from my REPL for a few days now without problem.
> 
> Much approval.

Yes, I approve too, although I would sugest to choose a different
name, simply because 'irc' is already the name of Internet Relay
Chat. How obout clirc or something like that?

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov  3 13:13:54 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 08:13:54 -0500
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
In-Reply-To: <mailman.177.1067850677.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Mario
	Mommer's message of "Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:04:19 +0100")
References: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
	<20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>
	<mailman.177.1067850677.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87y8uxa92l.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Yes, I approve too, although I would sugest to choose a different
> name, simply because 'irc' is already the name of Internet Relay
> Chat. How obout clirc or something like that?

I agree with that sentiment when we are dealing with trademarked names
but I don't think there would be any reason to do this in this instance.
Would you also name an SMTP library clsmtp, or an http library clhttp?

I'd prefer it to be 'irc' but if there are more people agreeing with
Mommer then I'm probably missing something and would be ok with a name
change.

Erik.



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Mon Nov  3 14:56:19 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:56:19 +0100
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
In-Reply-To: <87y8uxa92l.fsf@prium.net>
References: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
	<20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>
	<mailman.177.1067850677.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8uxa92l.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fz7k2hh564.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>


Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:
> 
> > Yes, I approve too, although I would sugest to choose a different
> > name, simply because 'irc' is already the name of Internet Relay
> > Chat. How obout clirc or something like that?
> 
> I agree with that sentiment when we are dealing with trademarked names
> but I don't think there would be any reason to do this in this instance.
> Would you also name an SMTP library clsmtp, or an http library clhttp?

I don't think I would name it SMTP, though, simply because it is not
SMTP. Like you don't call a garage a car, or a stream a file. It would
also be silly to call gtk bindings gtk, or to call CLX just X. Do you
think 'UNIX' is a good name for a CL interface to UNIX?

> I'd prefer it to be 'irc' but if there are more people agreeing with
> Mommer then I'm probably missing something and would be ok with a name
> change.

Hey, it was mostly a sugestion / observation. I don't think you'll
have trouble with this, but IMO it is not a good name.

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov  3 15:46:26 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:46:26 -0500
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
In-Reply-To: <mailman.181.1067871911.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Mario
	Mommer's message of "Mon, 03 Nov 2003 15:56:19 +0100")
References: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
	<20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>
	<mailman.177.1067850677.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8uxa92l.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.181.1067871911.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87ptg9a20d.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Do you think 'UNIX' is a good name for a CL interface to UNIX?

Yep.  But that's just me.  :-)

After heavy fighting and losses on both sides, #lisp was still undecided
so I chose "net.nittin.irc" for the official name pluss a package
nickname of "irc" for convenience.

Erik.




From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Mon Nov  3 16:32:30 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 17:32:30 +0100
Subject: [admin] Request for hosting of IRC project
In-Reply-To: <87ptg9a20d.fsf@prium.net>
References: <2392.66.156.35.153.1067780134.squirrel@imeme.net>
	<20031102151420.GA1484@random-state.net>
	<mailman.177.1067850677.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87y8uxa92l.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.181.1067871911.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg9a20d.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzy8uxfm5d.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:
> 
> > Do you think 'UNIX' is a good name for a CL interface to UNIX?
> 
> Yep.  But that's just me.  :-)
> 
> After heavy fighting and losses on both sides, #lisp was still undecided
> so I chose "net.nittin.irc" for the official name pluss a package
> nickname of "irc" for convenience.

Fair enough. I distinguish here between te package name and the name
of the project. I think "irc" is a sensible package name, but I don't
think "irc" is a good project name :-)

Regards,
        Mario.




From root at common-lisp.net  Mon Nov  3 16:57:19 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 11:57:19 -0500
Subject: [admin] added net-nittin-irc; owned by eenge
Message-ID: <E1AGi11-0005zO-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.03.11.57.



From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Wed Nov  5 19:54:30 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:54:30 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cells
Message-ID: <3FA95576.5040501@nyc.rr.com>

Hi. Thomas Burdick recommends I switch to your service for Cells. I am 
on SourceForge now if you want to check out my two projects there, 
RoboCells (actual files available) and Cells (which I was about to 
populate before Thomas spoke up. License is MITs. Code is all CL, tho C 
glue is always a possibility.

Can do? I would also do Cello (the Cells-based GUI) and RoboCells 
(RoboCup ala Cells) under the same project. I am approaching three users 
(what is that on the Arlo scale? a "movement"?), and they are 
replicating each other's efforts already trying to make sense out of my 
code.

thx,

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From nikodemus at random-state.net  Wed Nov  5 20:35:08 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 22:35:08 +0200
Subject: [admin] Cells
In-Reply-To: <3FA95576.5040501@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FA95576.5040501@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031105203508.GB696@random-state.net>

On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 02:54:30PM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:

> RoboCells (actual files available) and Cells (which I was about to 
> populate before Thomas spoke up. License is MITs. Code is all CL, tho C 
> glue is always a possibility.

Approved. ;)

> Can do? I would also do Cello (the Cells-based GUI) and RoboCells 
> (RoboCup ala Cells) under the same project. I am approaching three users 

...though on the long run you might want to consider having them as
separate projects on cl.net, both for better visibility and logistics.

Would you like to write an article about Cells? We're in the process
on starting an article service on cl.net as well...

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Nov  5 21:31:15 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 22:31:15 +0100
Subject: [admin] Cells
In-Reply-To: <3FA95576.5040501@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FA95576.5040501@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <fz3cd21p0c.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>


Hi Kenny!

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
> Hi. Thomas Burdick recommends I switch to your service for Cells. I am
> on SourceForge now if you want to check out my two projects there,
> RoboCells (actual files available) and Cells (which I was about to
> populate before Thomas spoke up. License is MITs. Code is all CL, tho
> C glue is always a possibility.
> 
> Can do? I would also do Cello (the Cells-based GUI) and RoboCells
> (RoboCup ala Cells) under the same project. I am approaching three
> users (what is that on the Arlo scale? a "movement"?), and they are
> replicating each other's efforts already trying to make sense out of
> my code.

I approve!

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Wed Nov  5 20:11:32 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 15:11:32 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cells
In-Reply-To: <mailman.234.1068062042.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Kenny
	Tilton's message of "Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:54:30 -0500")
References: <mailman.234.1068062042.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <871xsm8tjf.fsf@prium.net>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:

> Hi. Thomas Burdick recommends I switch to your service for Cells. I am
> on SourceForge now if you want to check out my two projects there,
> RoboCells (actual files available) and Cells (which I was about to
> populate before Thomas spoke up. License is MITs.

I approve.

Assuming the other guys approve, are there any other programmers that
should be made members of the project (you mention your "movement" ;),
I'd need their fullnames and email addresses)?

Erik.



From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov  7 06:09:39 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:09:39 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cells
In-Reply-To: <871xsm8tjf.fsf@prium.net>
References: <mailman.234.1068062042.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<871xsm8tjf.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <3FAB3723.5010804@nyc.rr.com>



Erik Enge wrote:

>Assuming the other guys approve, are there any other programmers that
>should be made members of the project (you mention your "movement" ;),
>I'd need their fullnames and email addresses)?
>

Please add Mr. Burdick (full name and email in CC list) as a Cells 
member with full privileges.

Thx, kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From eenge at prium.net  Fri Nov  7 12:13:56 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:13:56 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cells
In-Reply-To: <mailman.271.1068185346.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Kenny
	Tilton's message of "Fri, 07 Nov 2003 01:09:39 -0500")
References: <mailman.234.1068062042.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<871xsm8tjf.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.271.1068185346.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87llqs5qbf.fsf@prium.net>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:

> Please add Mr. Burdick (full name and email in CC list) as a Cells
> member with full privileges.

Done.

Erik.



From nikodemus at random-state.net  Fri Nov  7 12:45:53 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:45:53 +0200
Subject: [admin] Cells
In-Reply-To: <3FA982C3.1080609@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FA95576.5040501@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031105203508.GB696@random-state.net>
	<3FA96FB9.7050407@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031105220806.GC696@random-state.net>
	<3FA982C3.1080609@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031107124553.GB704@random-state.net>

On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 06:07:47PM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:

> >Heh. Just make both asdf-installable, and the "what to include in a
> >distro" becomes a moot point. ;)
> >
> Is this a diff approach than CVS, or supplemental?

Hm? Supplemental (and a weak attempt at humor on my part) I guess.

Asdf-install is a distribution tool, that automatically handles
dependencies, etc. It rocks the same way Debian's apt-get rocks --
though creating asdf-installable packages is a lot easier than making
.debs.

CVS is a revision control tool. For semi-decent docs look at

 http://www.cvshome.org/

, but note that if you would prefer Subversion, Arch, or any of the
umpteen available other RC systems, send mail to clo-devel, and we'll
see about it.

Ob licenses: splendid!

> Sounds good. Do you have any idea what content you want? What about 
> format? HTML?

I think some more presentation-neutral markup would be best, so LaTeX
springs to mind. 

OTOH, I think that even a tarball with a plain-text file for text, and
images and whatnot for rest is quite ok as well: as long as the
article is clearly structured in the text file we can then cram it
into a structured format, and render that into html, dvi, ps and pdf.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus



From root at common-lisp.net  Wed Nov  5 21:39:20 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 16:39:20 -0500
Subject: [admin] added cells; owned by ktilton
Message-ID: <E1AHVN2-00051n-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.05.16.39.



From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Thu Nov  6 19:20:30 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:20:30 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
Message-ID: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>

One of the admins suggested my SourceForge approach of splitting Cello 
off as a separate project made sense to him for common-lisp.net as well. 
It does make sense, since one can use Cells in non-GUI apps--I did so 
with my RoboCup client, whose only I/O is via sockets.

So I would like to formally request a separate Cello project on 
common-lisp.net.

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From nikodemus at random-state.net  Fri Nov  7 12:25:57 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:25:57 +0200
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031107122557.GA704@random-state.net>

On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:20:30PM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:

> So I would like to formally request a separate Cello project on 
> common-lisp.net.

With equal formality, I approve. 

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Sun Nov  9 13:28:45 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 14:28:45 +0100
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <fzisltisc2.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
> So I would like to formally request a separate Cello project on
> common-lisp.net.

I approve too. I was away for a few days without 'net access...

I think that if Kenny feels that a single project with subprojects
cells, cello, and open-gl bindings will be more comfortable for him
right now - well, I don't see a problem. If afterwards the needs
change, we just take a look at things and think what we can do.

Regards,
        Mario.




From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Sun Nov  9 16:14:23 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2003 11:14:23 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <fzisltisc2.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<fzisltisc2.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>
Message-ID: <3FAE67DF.6020006@nyc.rr.com>



Mario Mommer wrote:

>Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
>  
>
>>So I would like to formally request a separate Cello project on
>>common-lisp.net.
>>    
>>
>
>I approve too. I was away for a few days without 'net access...
>
>I think that if Kenny feels that a single project with subprojects
>cells, cello, and open-gl bindings will be more comfortable for him
>right now - well, I don't see a problem. 
>

Thx, guys. I woke up this morning and remembered, hey, Cello, so far has 
been gotten to work only on win32 and only with LW and ACL (CLisp and 
CormanCL efforts came to nought, but might fly with more persistence; 
anyway..) so that's another black mark for Cello. I'd at least like to 
see one port to the land of Unice before beating my chest too loudly 
about Cello. And my ogl bindings are a private joke, I'll never brag 
about those. :)

The envelope, please.....Cello will be nothing but a zip available by 
FTP from the Cells project until/if there is a version working under X 
(SBCL, CMUCL, or OpenMCL). Then I will re-request a Cello project.

Thx for being supportive and ging me the options.

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From eenge at prium.net  Fri Nov  7 12:16:02 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:16:02 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.264.1068146425.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Kenny
	Tilton's message of "Thu, 06 Nov 2003 14:20:30 -0500")
References: <mailman.264.1068146425.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87d6c45q7x.fsf@prium.net>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:

> So I would like to formally request a separate Cello project on
> common-lisp.net.

Same license?  I approve.

Erik.



From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov  7 14:19:28 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 09:19:28 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <87d6c45q7x.fsf@prium.net>
References: <mailman.264.1068146425.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87d6c45q7x.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <3FABA9F0.5090109@nyc.rr.com>



Erik Enge wrote:

>Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
>  
>
>>So I would like to formally request a separate Cello project on
>>common-lisp.net.
>>    
>>
>
>Same license?  
>

This from a prior exchange with Nicholas:



Kenny Tilton wrote:

>
>
> Nikodemus Siivola wrote:
>
>>
>> Just to be on the clear: what are the license issues with Cello? As
>> in, what libraries, under what licenses does it depend on?
>>
>
> As of now (the alternative being GTk):
>
>   FreeGlut: X-Consortium license.
>   OpenGL: none for software, some for hardware
>   (possibly)  FTGL MIT-style and FreeType (choice of GPL or BSD-style 
> /with/ advertising clause)
>   (possibly) Image Magick MIT-style
>   Cells (MIT)
>  

And Cello itself is also MIT (but you remind me, I do not think I swept 
those sources changing the copyright. will do before uploading.)

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application


-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From eenge at prium.net  Fri Nov  7 20:00:16 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:00:16 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Nikodemus
	Siivola's message of "Fri, 7 Nov 2003 14:25:57 +0200")
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:

> With equal formality, I approve. 

In the interest of keeping our users happy, do you (Nikodemus) think we
should go ahead and create the Cello project given that it's basically
the same as Cells (with regards to license etc.) and given the fact that
Mario approved Cells?

Erik.



From nikodemus at random-state.net  Sat Nov  8 02:17:57 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 04:17:57 +0200
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>

On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 03:00:16PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> In the interest of keeping our users happy, do you (Nikodemus) think we
> should go ahead and create the Cello project given that it's basically
> the same as Cells (with regards to license etc.) and given the fact that
> Mario approved Cells?

I suggested that Kenny apply for Cello separately mainly for
organizational clarity (and the hunch that there are plenty of people
who may be interested in one, but not the other). ;)

...but give Mario a day or two to respond, unless Cello is in urgent
need of CVS space? 

(Kenny: If that is the case (danger of forking due to off-cvs parallel
development, etc), let Erik know so that he can create it. In that
case will worry about the administrivia later...)

There is actually room here for a devil's advocate argument:

 "Should Common-lisp.net host multiple projects with greatly overlapping
  objectives?"

For what it's worth, I think yes. Common-lisp.net should be a fertile
ground where most flowers can bloom. 

Once we have MORE CODE we can start sorting the wheat from the chaff,
but even then Common-lisp.net isn't probably the place to do it.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 06:14:04 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 01:14:04 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>



Nikodemus Siivola wrote:

>On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 03:00:16PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:
>
>  
>
>>In the interest of keeping our users happy, do you (Nikodemus) think we
>>should go ahead and create the Cello project given that it's basically
>>the same as Cells (with regards to license etc.) and given the fact that
>>Mario approved Cells?
>>    
>>
>
>I suggested that Kenny apply for Cello separately mainly for
>organizational clarity (and the hunch that there are plenty of people
>who may be interested in one, but not the other). ;)
>
>...but give Mario a day or two to respond, unless Cello is in urgent
>need of CVS space? 
>
Absolutely not. I have to switch from Freeglut 1.x to a shiny new FG2.0, 
which will wreak havoc since I forked FG1 pretty badly. This will also 
mean I need to grab, build, and learn a couple of (open) text libs, 
because I also added text handling to FG. So my work is cut out for me 
before I have anything to release.

>
>(Kenny: If that is the case (danger of forking due to off-cvs parallel
>development, etc), let Erik know so that he can create it. In that
>case will worry about the administrivia later...)
>
>There is actually room here for a devil's advocate argument:
>
> "Should Common-lisp.net host multiple projects with greatly overlapping
>  objectives?"
>
I have zero problem with doing all this under one project (I'd just have 
separate bundles/directories/whatever for Cells and Cello) and it might 
even be a lot more manageable that way until/if one or the other catches 
on. I can see myself over on a Cello list saying, "Oh, that's a Cells 
question, let's take it to cells-devel so folks there can see it". Ugh, 
sounds awful. :)

One project, then? :)

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From nikodemus at random-state.net  Sat Nov  8 13:10:11 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 15:10:11 +0200
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>

On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 01:14:04AM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:

> >"Should Common-lisp.net host multiple projects with greatly overlapping
> > objectives?"

> I have zero problem with doing all this under one project (I'd just have 

Heh. ;) That was actually a reference to multiple GUI-projects, as we
already host Mario's lgtk (GTK for CL) project.

> separate bundles/directories/whatever for Cells and Cello) and it might 
> even be a lot more manageable that way until/if one or the other catches 
> on. I can see myself over on a Cello list saying, "Oh, that's a Cells 

...I really think they're stunting each other already. Take me for
example: I'm definitely interested in Cells, but could not currently
care less for Cello. ;)

> One project, then? :)

As an admin: "Your choise." 

As a lisper: 

  I haven't looked at the codebase, so I have no idea of the boundaries
  between them -- so this is rather theoretical. ;)

  Cells is a "dataflow oriented extension" to Common Lisp, in a sence
  analogous to CLOS. I think that if the paradigm and ideas of Cells are
  universal enough, then Cells (or another implementation of that paradigm)
  has the potential (yes, I know this is unlikely) to become "another
  CLOS" on the long term.

  Cello on the other hand seems to be at least three totally different
  projects rolled into one: 

   1) An experimental CLIM-like system based on Cells instead of CLOS.

   2) A backend for the above, built on top of OpenGL.

   3) OpenGL bindings for Common Lisp.

  Now, *if* these perceptions are correct (I'm largely guessing here),
  then there really should be three projects if the CL community were to
  reap maximum benefit from all this:

   Cells, Cello, cl-opengl

<half-serious> On a totally different topic: Erik, I'm getting the
feeling that we're starting to have enough people on Common-lisp.net
that it might make sense to start talk at common-lisp.net -- a mailing
list equivalent of cll for people who certifiably are writing open CL
stuff instead of just alking about it.  </half-serious>

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 15:32:55 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:32:55 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <3FAD0CA7.2090109@nyc.rr.com>



Nikodemus Siivola wrote:

>On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 01:14:04AM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:
>
>  
>
>>>"Should Common-lisp.net host multiple projects with greatly overlapping
>>>objectives?"
>>>      
>>>
>
>  
>
>>I have zero problem with doing all this under one project (I'd just have 
>>    
>>
>
>Heh. ;) That was actually a reference to multiple GUI-projects, as we
>already host Mario's lgtk (GTK for CL) project.
>
Oh. OK, looking back then to:

>For what it's worth, I think yes. Common-lisp.net should be a fertile
>ground where most flowers can bloom. 
>
>Once we have MORE CODE we can start sorting the wheat from the chaff,
>but even then Common-lisp.net isn't probably the place to do it.
>  
>
<heh> I can tell you already that I will continue the open thing only 
if  others vote for it with their support. It is too much trouble 
otherwise. So there should be a nice self-selection thing going on. If 
resources are scarce you might want to evict inactive projects (I'll let 
you know if I pull the plug, btw.) Over on SourceForge I think there are 
tons of projects that never got further than being created (mine 
included until recently).

It is interesting to see selectivity (by the admins) even being 
considered. You'd have to update the mission statement to "open source 
boutique" or something.

>>separate bundles/directories/whatever for Cells and Cello) and it might 
>>even be a lot more manageable that way until/if one or the other catches 
>>on. I can see myself over on a Cello list saying, "Oh, that's a Cells 
>>    
>>
>
>...I really think they're stunting each other already. Take me for
>example: I'm definitely interested in Cells, but could not currently
>care less for Cello. ;)
>
POI: "stunting each other"? You mean Cells is hurt by the Cello thing, 
in that one gets the idea they are inseparable? The names are almost 
inseparable, maybe that's the problem. I know I have encountered 
confusion in others on that score.

>>One project, then? :)
>>    
>>
>
>As an admin: "Your choise." 
>
>As a lisper: 
>
>  I haven't looked at the codebase, so I have no idea of the boundaries
>  between them -- so this is rather theoretical. ;)
>
>  Cells is a "dataflow oriented extension" to Common Lisp, in a sence
>  analogous to CLOS. I think that if the paradigm and ideas of Cells are
>  universal enough, then Cells (or another implementation of that paradigm)
>  has the potential (yes, I know this is unlikely) to become "another
>  CLOS" on the long term.
>
Aside: I think it is very likely the dataflow paradigm will prevail, and 
I /know/ Cells won't because a fundamental rewrite is planned (and 
needed), and in the end brighter folks than me will have to find the 
Right Way. Dataflow is the Lisp of paradigms, first implemented in 1962, 
then Steele tried again with his PhD thesis cum language in the 80s, now 
Garnet and RETE and COSI and Cells and a couple people that approached 
me at  ILC2003 with news of their own similar hacks.

Back on topic: right, this has nothing to do with GUI, per se. GUIs are 
just the killer app for Cells.

>
>  Cello on the other hand seems to be at least three totally different
>  projects rolled into one: 
>
>   1) An experimental CLIM-like system based on Cells instead of CLOS.
>
? Cells extend CLOS (and defstructs are on the way). Cello is all CLOS 
all the time.

>
>   2) A backend for the above, built on top of OpenGL.
>
>   3) OpenGL bindings for Common Lisp.
>
>  Now, *if* these perceptions are correct (I'm largely guessing here),
>  then there really should be three projects if the CL community were to
>  reap maximum benefit from all this:
>
>   Cells, Cello, cl-opengl
>
God, I'd love a cl-opengl, tho I have enough bindings done to keep me 
happy for a while. But I ducked the scary ones. :)

>.. people who certifiably are writing open CL
>stuff instead of just alking about it. 
>
don't get me started. <serious>

 :)

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From nikodemus at random-state.net  Sat Nov  8 23:39:30 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 01:39:30 +0200
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <3FAD0CA7.2090109@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
	<3FAD0CA7.2090109@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031108233930.GC1237@random-state.net>

On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 10:32:55AM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:

> I can tell you already that I will continue the open thing only if
> others vote for it with their support. It is too much trouble
> otherwise.

I'm not sure what you mean by support... if you mean "people rushing
in to actively write code", I doubt you'll ever be overwhelmed.

But as for getting users who may occasionally send bug-reports or
submit their hacks, I think you're of to a good start:

Looking at

 http://common-lisp.net/stats/

I see 98 hits on the Cells homepage already. ;)

> If resources are scarce you might want to evict inactive projects (I'll let 
> you know if I pull the plug, btw.) Over on SourceForge I think there are 
> tons of projects that never got further than being created (mine 
> included until recently).

Since disks are cheap, I hope we never have to face such a
decision. I'd rather hope that Common-lisp.net CVS would in ten years
time be analogous to the CMU AI repository now: some of the stuff may
be old, but a lot of it is still damn good.

> It is interesting to see selectivity (by the admins) even being 
> considered. You'd have to update the mission statement to "open source 
> boutique" or something.

Not unique really. Consider http://www.tigris.org. The problem I see
with the Tigris approach is that it's really hard to predict what will
succeed on the long term.

That's why I like our current approach of keeping the barrier of entry
to CL net fairly low. 

OTOH, I do hope that the requirement to send email without the guide
provided by prefilled forms like sf.net and savannah provide serves to
pre-filter the truly low end of the code-pool. (Yes, I deserve to be
flamed for talking like this.)

> POI: "stunting each other"? You mean Cells is hurt by the Cello thing, 
> in that one gets the idea they are inseparable? 

Stunting each other as in:

 * There are probably people who are eager to hack on CL GUI thing that
   is a) unique to CL, b) not CLIM. These people, however are not
   necessarily (at least initially) the least interested in Cells.

 * There are probably people who are eager to experiment with the
   dataflow paradigm and Cells, but don't give a damn about GUI's,
   and don't want to follow mailing lists that talk about them.

Dunno. I'm probably just paranoid.

> >  1) An experimental CLIM-like system based on Cells instead of CLOS.

> ? Cells extend CLOS (and defstructs are on the way). Cello is all CLOS 
> all the time.

<handwaving>I ment Cells as a sort of superset of CLOS, or something
like that. To paraphrase KMP: as CLIM uses the power of CLOS to "bend the
space-time" I suspect Cello uses the power of Cells.</>

> God, I'd love a cl-opengl, tho I have enough bindings done to keep me 
> happy for a while. But I ducked the scary ones. :)

Heh. There seem to be plenty of cl-opengl bindings going around. I'm
sort of hoping that one of them decides to use a public CVS (cl.net,
sf, whatever) and a MIT/X/BSD style license. ;)

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From eenge at prium.net  Sat Nov  8 16:30:33 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Sat,  8 Nov 2003 11:30:33 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <1068309033.3fad1a29416ba@mail.prium.net>

Quoting Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net>:

> <half-serious> On a totally different topic: Erik, I'm getting the
> feeling that we're starting to have enough people on Common-lisp.net
> that it might make sense to start talk at common-lisp.net -- a mailing
> list equivalent of cll for people who certifiably are writing open
> CL stuff instead of just alking about it.  </half-serious>

I thought that was what clump was supposed to do?

Erik.




From miles at caddr.com  Sat Nov  8 17:27:22 2003
From: miles at caddr.com (Miles Egan)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 09:27:22 -0800
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <1068309033.3fad1a29416ba@mail.prium.net>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net>
	<20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>	<20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
	<1068309033.3fad1a29416ba@mail.prium.net>
Message-ID: <3FAD277A.8070702@caddr.com>

Erik Enge wrote:

>Quoting Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net>:
>
>  
>
>><half-serious> On a totally different topic: Erik, I'm getting the
>>feeling that we're starting to have enough people on Common-lisp.net
>>that it might make sense to start talk at common-lisp.net -- a mailing
>>list equivalent of cll for people who certifiably are writing open
>>CL stuff instead of just alking about it.  </half-serious>
>>    
>>
>
>I thought that was what clump was supposed to do?
>
>Erik.
>  
>
That's generally the charter for clump, yes.




From anthony at ventimiglia.org  Sat Nov  8 21:20:51 2003
From: anthony at ventimiglia.org (Anthony Ventimiglia)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:20:51 -0500
Subject: [lists] Re: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031108131011.GA725@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <16301.24115.573031.690311@afghan.dogpound>


 > <half-serious> On a totally different topic: Erik, I'm getting the
 > feeling that we're starting to have enough people on Common-lisp.net
 > that it might make sense to start talk at common-lisp.net -- a mailing
 > list equivalent of cll for people who certifiably are writing open CL
 > stuff instead of just alking about it.  </half-serious>

I thought of making that recommendation as well, since cll is not
common-lisp specific, it might be nice to start an cl exclusive
list. Maybe we won't have to waste time filtering through all the
scheme vs lisp and python vs lisp threads that seem to be so dominant.

-- 
(incf *yankees-world-series-losses*)



From eenge at prium.net  Sat Nov  8 16:09:12 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Sat,  8 Nov 2003 11:09:12 -0500
Subject: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <1068307752.3fad152872ab6@mail.prium.net>

Quoting Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com>:

> One project, then? :)

You're probably right that "oh, sorry, that would be a Cells
question"-situations would arrise, so I'm with you, one project
until you've got enough userbase that there is a problem of
having just one project. 

That aside, you say that having this opened up like this will
only continue as long as people use/support it and that hadn't
it been for that fact, having it open would've been to much
work.  For me, having my projects on common-lisp.net where they
are backed up, on high-quality SCSI harddrives, where I have
FTP/web/ViewCVS/CVS/AnonCVS/NNTP/Mailings support without having 
to deal with any of that myself is far more convenient than
having my software on my home box where a) noone else can get
to it so I become the bottleneck and b) backups aren't that great.

I also use XEmacs with its CVS support so I wouldn't have notice
whether my code was on my local box or not in any case.  You really
want to check out http://www.cs.utk.edu/~england/ssh.html to make
sure you can do password-less operations on your CVS tree.

common-lisp.net is supposed to be of real value to CL developers 
and the CL community.  If you can identify issues which make it a 
hassle, I (and I'm sure the other guys) would be very greatful for 
any advice you can give us so we can avoid those in the future.

Erik.




From anthony at ventimiglia.org  Sat Nov  8 21:18:02 2003
From: anthony at ventimiglia.org (Anthony Ventimiglia)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 16:18:02 -0500
Subject: [lists] Re: [admin] Cello, too?
In-Reply-To: <3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAA9EFE.9090407@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.279.1068208932.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87ptg43q5r.fsf@prium.net> <20031108021757.GA2469@random-state.net>
	<3FAC89AC.6050604@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <16301.23946.650150.545786@afghan.dogpound>

Kenny Tilton writes:
 > > "Should Common-lisp.net host multiple projects with greatly overlapping
 > >  objectives?"
 > >
 > I have zero problem with doing all this under one project (I'd just have 
 > separate bundles/directories/whatever for Cells and Cello) and it might 
 > even be a lot more manageable that way until/if one or the other catches 
 > on. I can see myself over on a Cello list saying, "Oh, that's a Cells 
 > question, let's take it to cells-devel so folks there can see it". Ugh, 
 > sounds awful. :)
 > 
 > One project, then? :)

I agree with this approach, since I may eventually end up making some
sub-projects based on CLHP, if they are closely related, it might be
better to keep them in a single project.

-- 
(incf *yankees-world-series-losses*)



From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Fri Nov  7 18:45:12 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:45:12 -0500
Subject: [admin] [Fwd: Re: gui and graphics question]
Message-ID: <3FABE838.6070204@nyc.rr.com>

Attached is a message from a gentleman who has tried twice to sign up. 
Others have gotten in OK. I logged in as admin to see what I could see, 
but could not find any way to investigate, eg, by seeing rejected stuff.

Any ideas?

thx, kenny


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: gui and graphics question
Date: 	Fri, 07 Nov 2003 12:49:29 -0500
From: 	tarvydas <tarvydas at allstream.net>
To: 	Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com>
References: 	<200311061247.18411.tarvydas at allstream.net> 
<200311071034.33229.tarvydas at allstream.net> <3FABCBEE.6080005 at nyc.rr.com>



On Friday 07 November 2003 11:44 am, you wrote:
>    http://common-lisp.net/mailman/listinfo/cells-devel

Did it again 1 hour ago.  No apparent response.

pt




-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From eenge at prium.net  Fri Nov  7 19:03:44 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 14:03:44 -0500
Subject: [admin] [Fwd: Re: gui and graphics question]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.291.1068230680.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Kenny
	Tilton's message of "Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:45:12 -0500")
References: <mailman.291.1068230680.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87wuac3srz.fsf@prium.net>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:

> Any ideas?

It looks like his host was not available at the time common-lisp.net's
Mailman tried sending him his subscription information.  I just retried
manually but still no luck:

  2003-11-07 13:57:33 1AHpuw-0006ej-00 == tarvydas at allstream.ca
  T=remote_smtp defer (110): Connection timed out

It looks like his SMTP is dead.  If he could assure me that it's not
I'll see if there's something wrong with common-lisp.net's internet
access that maybe won't allow us to get to him (doubt it).

The common-lisp.net mailserver will try several more times for the next
few days before giving up.

Erik.



From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Sat Nov  8 19:03:57 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:03:57 -0500
Subject: [admin] FTP help
Message-ID: <3FAD3E1D.5050700@nyc.rr.com>

Hi. I am trying to ftp up my first release.

I opened common-lis.net, cd'ed to /pub/project/cells, but when I:

ftp> put cells031108.zip

I get "553 Anonymous users may not overwrite existing files"

Makes sense, but how do I login? I see "anonymous only" when I:

ftp> open common-lisp.net

I tried supplying "ktilton" at the username prompt but it still logged 
me in anonymously, as promised.

help. :)

kenny

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Sat Nov  8 19:21:29 2003
From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:21:29 -0800
Subject: [admin] FTP help
In-Reply-To: <3FAD3E1D.5050700@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FAD3E1D.5050700@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <16301.16953.939152.193077@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>

FTP sends your password unencrypted, so they don't let you log in with
it.  Try SFTP or SCP: WinSCP should do what you want

  http://winscp.sourceforge.net/eng/


-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               



From eenge at prium.net  Sat Nov  8 21:06:10 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:06:10 -0500
Subject: [admin] FTP help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.328.1068318198.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Kenny
	Tilton's message of "Sat, 08 Nov 2003 14:03:57 -0500")
References: <mailman.328.1068318198.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87d6c2fu4d.fsf@prium.net>

Kenny Tilton <ktilton at nyc.rr.com> writes:

> Hi. I am trying to ftp up my first release.
>
> I opened common-lis.net, cd'ed to /pub/project/cells, but when I:
>
> ftp> put cells031108.zip
>
> I get "553 Anonymous users may not overwrite existing files"
>
> Makes sense, but how do I login? I see "anonymous only" when I:
>
> ftp> open common-lisp.net
>
> I tried supplying "ktilton" at the username prompt but it still logged
> me in anonymously, as promised.
>
> help. :)
>
> kenny
>
> -- 
> http://tilton-technology.com
>
> Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film Your Project
> Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application



From eenge at prium.net  Sat Nov  8 21:08:51 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2003 16:08:51 -0500
Subject: [admin] FTP help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.329.1068319261.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Thomas F.
	Burdick's message of "Sat, 8 Nov 2003 11:21:29 -0800")
References: <3FAD3E1D.5050700@nyc.rr.com>
	<mailman.329.1068319261.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87wuaaeffg.fsf@prium.net>

"Thomas F. Burdick" <tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> writes:

> FTP sends your password unencrypted, so they don't let you log in with
> it.

Correct.  The directory you want to upload to is

  /project/cells/ftp

You can also SSH into you account, then cd to that directory and
copy/move files etc.

Erik.



From anthony at ventimiglia.org  Mon Nov 10 14:18:23 2003
From: anthony at ventimiglia.org (Anthony Ventimiglia)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:18:23 -0500
Subject: [admin] anonymous pserver access failing
Message-ID: <16303.40495.338968.593828@afghan.dogpound>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


I just realized anonymous pserver access is not working for clhp:
ant at foxx:~$ cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at common-lisp.net:/project/clhp/cvsroot login
Logging in to :pserver:anonymous at common-lisp.net:2401/project/clhp/cvsroot
CVS password:
ant at foxx:~$ cvs -d:pserver:anonymous at common-lisp.net:/project/clhp/cvsroot co clhp
cvs server: Updating clhp
cvs server: failed to create lock directory for `/project/clhp/cvsroot/clhp' (/project/clhp/cvsroot/clhp/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository `/project/clhp/cvsroot/clhp'
cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up
ant at foxx:~$


I'm using "anonymous" for the password as per the FAQ. Can you fix
this ?

- -- 
(incf *yankees-world-series-losses*)
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.7 <http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/>

iQCVAwUBP6+eKwqNYTLzAsoIAQKz0QP/dY8UU9mrL+SYON9Q9Aw6hLtua0VsfcmF
5lPeYQqQYu1AUZrGS6imoPNQDMh9ZWxZNQL2GqyHXvDaFK28lh2mDIPSJ3ypoGLd
QXn/48Zl3LVJo5DUq7GU5SfMkJRABS3wjb9HKspNpjmNHOY8cdsodR8bGe/tzrYT
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From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov 10 14:31:28 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:31:28 -0500
Subject: [admin] anonymous pserver access failing
In-Reply-To: <mailman.354.1068473883.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Anthony
	Ventimiglia's message of "Mon, 10 Nov 2003 09:18:23 -0500")
References: <mailman.354.1068473883.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87znf42t33.fsf@prium.net>

Anthony Ventimiglia <anthony at ventimiglia.org> writes:

> I'm using "anonymous" for the password as per the FAQ. Can you fix
> this ?

The issue is that you are the owner and group of the files in your CVS
repository.  chgrp -R your CVS repository to clhp and it should work
fine.

Erik.



From marcoxa at cs.nyu.edu  Mon Nov 10 18:37:55 2003
From: marcoxa at cs.nyu.edu (Marco Antoniotti)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:37:55 -0500
Subject: [admin] Very nice
Message-ID: <FFF9FA3D-13AC-11D8-BCAB-000393A70920@cs.nyu.edu>

Hi

thanks for the great site.  I guess I can move some of my projects 
there. :)

Anyway,  could you add a page with all the projects?  Maybe categorized 
as well?

Thanks

marco



--
Marco Antoniotti
NYU Courant Bioinformatics Group		tel. +1 - 212 - 998 3488
715 Broadway 10th FL				fax. +1 - 212 - 998 3484
New York, NY, 10003, U.S.A.




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Mon Nov 10 19:01:52 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 21:01:52 +0200
Subject: [admin] Very nice
In-Reply-To: <FFF9FA3D-13AC-11D8-BCAB-000393A70920@cs.nyu.edu>
References: <FFF9FA3D-13AC-11D8-BCAB-000393A70920@cs.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <20031110190152.GC702@random-state.net>

On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 01:37:55PM -0500, Marco Antoniotti wrote:

> Anyway, could you add a page with all the projects?  Maybe
> categorized as well?

The main page actually does list all the projects under "Recent
Projects", modulo those projects that are actually umbrella projects.

Categorization, etc. will be provided "eventually". I'd say that that
happens at the latest around the same time projects start falling of
the Recent Projects list. ;)

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Tue Nov 11 07:49:03 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:49:03 +0100
Subject: [admin] Very nice
In-Reply-To: <FFF9FA3D-13AC-11D8-BCAB-000393A70920@cs.nyu.edu>
References: <FFF9FA3D-13AC-11D8-BCAB-000393A70920@cs.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <fzbrrjxs40.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Marco Antoniotti <marcoxa at cs.nyu.edu> writes:
> thanks for the great site.

Oh, you are welcome!

> I guess I can move some of my projects
> there. :)

As Erik said: just bring them on. :)

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov 10 20:24:37 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:24:37 -0500
Subject: [admin] Very nice
References: <mailman.372.1068489437.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <878ymo2cqi.fsf@prium.net>

Marco Antoniotti <marcoxa at cs.nyu.edu> writes:

> thanks for the great site.  I guess I can move some of my projects
> there. :)

Bring them on!  :-)

> Anyway, could you add a page with all the projects?  Maybe categorized
> as well?

To add to what Nikodemus said, I have been wanting to set up araneida +
SBCL + pg-dot-lisp + PostgreSQL for a while now and once I get around to
doing so there will be no problems generating listings with categories
etc.

Erik.


From erik at nittin.net  Wed Nov 12 19:27:23 2003
From: erik at nittin.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:27:23 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
Message-ID: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>

I'd like to apply for net-nittin-hyperspec:

  net-nittin-hyperspec: an ANSI Common Lisp library that provides a
  reliable way of mapping symbols to URLs for both the Common Lisp
  Hyperspec and the Common Lisp Object System MetaObject Protocol.

For example:

  * (hs:lookup "defun")
  "http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm"

`lookup' tries both the Hyperspec and the MOP.  `hyperspec-lookup' and
`mop-lookup' are also provided.

Erik.



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Nov 12 21:35:44 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:35:44 +0100
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
Message-ID: <fzwua52rtb.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <erik at nittin.net> writes:
> I'd like to apply for net-nittin-hyperspec:
> 
>   net-nittin-hyperspec: an ANSI Common Lisp library that provides a
>   reliable way of mapping symbols to URLs for both the Common Lisp
>   Hyperspec and the Common Lisp Object System MetaObject Protocol.
> 
> For example:
> 
>   * (hs:lookup "defun")
>   "http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defun.htm"
> 
> `lookup' tries both the Hyperspec and the MOP.  `hyperspec-lookup' and
> `mop-lookup' are also provided.

Sounds good. Licensing is MIT or BSD, right?

Regards,
        Mario.




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Wed Nov 12 22:28:13 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:28:13 +0200
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
Message-ID: <20031112222813.GA705@random-state.net>

On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 02:27:23PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> I'd like to apply for net-nittin-hyperspec:

Superbly cool! 

Though you forgot to mention the license... ;) Assuming MIT/X/BSD
style, I approve.

OTOH I (as usual) would point out that I don't think prefixes are all
that necessary, but they don't hurt too much either...

Are you interested in expanding this to work with arbitrary packages?
If so, then a) I'd like to help, b) wouldn't "hyperdoc" be a better
name?

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus

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From eenge at prium.net  Wed Nov 12 22:06:42 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:06:42 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
	<mailman.446.1068672974.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87n0b1xmvh.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Sounds good. Licensing is MIT or BSD, right?

Yep, MIT.

Erik.


From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Wed Nov 12 22:07:48 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 23:07:48 +0100
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <87n0b1xmvh.fsf@prium.net>
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
	<mailman.446.1068672974.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87n0b1xmvh.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzislp2qbv.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:
> 
> > Sounds good. Licensing is MIT or BSD, right?
> 
> Yep, MIT.

Probably redundant at this point, but just to avoid confusion: I
approve :)

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 12:02:07 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:02:07 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
	<mailman.452.1068677087.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87fzgsxyrk.fsf@prium.net>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:

> Though you forgot to mention the license... ;) Assuming MIT/X/BSD
> style, I approve.

Correct; MIT.

> OTOH I (as usual) would point out that I don't think prefixes are all
> that necessary, but they don't hurt too much either...

I thought some more about that.  Here's what I came up with.  I think
net-nittin-irc and net-nittin-whatever implement an interface (that is
not defined but still there in terms of the implementation); others are
welcome to implement com-myhouse-irc with the same (or, naturally, a
different) interface.

I've been thinking lately that UFFI is really nice and that USOCKET
would be equally cool.  I thought about what I would name it:
net-nittin-usocket kinda implies what I said above but that defeats the
"universal" in USOCKET so for it I would simply choose the name USOCKET.

> Are you interested in expanding this to work with arbitrary packages?

Anything to make the library more general.  What did you have in mind?
I know dan-b keeps talking about his hyperdocumentation API.

> If so, then a) I'd like to help, b) wouldn't "hyperdoc" be a better
> name?

a) Welcome!

b) Yeah, probably.

Let's have a quick discussion about what other things it could include
before settling on the name.

Erik.


From nikodemus at random-state.net  Thu Nov 13 12:10:05 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:10:05 +0200
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <87fzgsxyrk.fsf@prium.net>
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
	<mailman.452.1068677087.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87fzgsxyrk.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031113121005.GC703@random-state.net>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 07:02:07AM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

Snipped naming stuff. I agree in principle, but differ in the
details. Nuff said, more code. ;)

> Anything to make the library more general.  What did you have in mind?
> I know dan-b keeps talking about his hyperdocumentation API.

This probably requires a bit experimentation in terms of what is the
Right Thing, but I was thinking (inspired by dan's comments):

 * Packages can include *hyperdoc-info* symbol, or equivalent,
   bound to a eg. an assoc list that tells the hyperdoc package whatever
   it needs to know.

 * Hyperdoc package finds the name of the symbols package, discovers
   if that package is subject to any local renamings (so that conf for
   foolisp can map foolisp-internals to cl, and cl can be mapped to clhs).

 * Hyperdoc checks  *hyperdoc-info* in that package, and generates the
   URI based on info provided there.

I have some other interactive documentation related ideas as well, but
that might be a nice start.

For bonus points persuade SLIME people to use hyperdoc instead of the
elisp stuff, so you get C-c C-h for arbitrary symbols for free. ;)
   
Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 15:27:56 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:27:56 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <mailman.499.1068726398.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Nikodemus
	Siivola's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:10:05 +0200")
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
	<mailman.452.1068677087.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87fzgsxyrk.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.499.1068726398.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87r80c5lvn.fsf@prium.net>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:

> I have some other interactive documentation related ideas as well, but
> that might be a nice start.

So, we're looking at:

  * (hyperdoc:lookup "myfunction" "mypackage") 

Or something like that?  Then hyperdoc would know how to go into that
package, ask for *hyperdoc-info* or whatever and figure out how to
compose the return value?  What possible return values are there?  Just
URLs?

Then Slime and REPL users can ask hyperdoc and have it as a consistent
interface while hyperdoc knows how to get documentation from possible
multiple types of systems, including what you mention about
*hyperdoc-info*?  (Although, perhaps it would be better to provide a
function that returned the URL.)

Erik.



From nikodemus at random-state.net  Fri Nov 14 00:38:45 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 02:38:45 +0200
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <87r80c5lvn.fsf@prium.net>
References: <873cctz8tg.fsf@nittin.net>
	<mailman.452.1068677087.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87fzgsxyrk.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.499.1068726398.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87r80c5lvn.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031114003845.GI703@random-state.net>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 10:27:56AM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:

>   * (hyperdoc:lookup "myfunction" "mypackage") 
> 
> Or something like that?  Then hyperdoc would know how to go into that
> package, ask for *hyperdoc-info* or whatever and figure out how to
> compose the return value?  What possible return values are there?  Just
> URLs?

I was too cute with the *h-i*, it seems. We should probably move this
off admin, btw...

Basing this on:

 http://www.cliki.net/hyperdoc

Lookup:

 (defun hyperdoc (thing &optional doc-type)
   (let ((uri (hyperdoc-lookup (symbol-package thing) thing doc-type)))
      (if (or doc-type uri)
	   uri
	   (hyperdoc-lookup-all-types (symbol-package thing) thing))))

The ..all-types should call hyperdoc lookup on all types, and return
an assoc list of unique non-NIL URI's and their types. Client code can
then offer choise, etc.

In random package:

 (defvar *hyperdoc-base-uri* "http://www.foobar.com/foo/docs/")

 (defmethod hyperdoc-lookup ((package (eql #.*package*)) symbol type)
   (concatenate 'string *hyperdoc-base-uri* 
                        (string-downcase (symbol-name symbol)) 
                        ".html"))

The important thing here is that this should be simple to use in any
given package. So small-low-tech packages can just cat a few strings
and be done. Big, involved packages may do more sophisticated things.

Providing documentation on objects:

I can see how this would be neat, but am not sold not it being the
sensible way to do things in the "random client package", since it
seems fairly easy to get it slightly wrong.

I'd rather do something like this:

 (defun ensure-hyperdoc-for-objects (package)
    (loop for x being the external-symbols of package
	  when (fboundp x) 
	  do (setf (documentation (fdefinition x) (intern "T" :hyperdoc)) (hyperdoc x 'function))
          ...other types...))

...and then add the DOCUMENTATION lookup to hyperdoc for non-symbols.


Also, the real bells and whistles pipe-dream would be to autogenerate
the hypertext markup from the documentation strings in the system,
parsing wiki-like markup to allow linking to other symbols...

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From ktilton at nyc.rr.com  Thu Nov 13 00:38:54 2003
From: ktilton at nyc.rr.com (Kenny Tilton)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:38:54 -0500
Subject: [admin] I'm so confused... <g>
Message-ID: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>

I did it once, not sure how...better write this stuff down.

I am using WinSCP3 to upload files for FTP access. I am being asked for 
a session password. I have tried leaving it blank, did not work. 

And do I use SCP or SFTP or whatever as the mode in WinSCP3?

thx, kt

-- 
http://tilton-technology.com

Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film 

Your Project Here! http://alu.cliki.net/Industry%20Application





From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Thu Nov 13 01:17:37 2003
From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:17:37 -0800
Subject: [admin] I'm so confused... <g>
In-Reply-To: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <16306.56241.269135.472808@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>

Kenny Tilton writes:
 > I did it once, not sure how...better write this stuff down.
 > 
 > I am using WinSCP3 to upload files for FTP access. I am being asked for 
 > a session password. I have tried leaving it blank, did not work. 
 > 
 > And do I use SCP or SFTP or whatever as the mode in WinSCP3?

Since they have SFTP running, use that.  I'm not sure what it means by
session password.  I just checked, and SFTP works for me, logging in
as tburdick, and giving the appropriate password.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               



From anthony at ventimiglia.org  Thu Nov 13 02:09:15 2003
From: anthony at ventimiglia.org (Anthony Ventimiglia)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:09:15 -0500
Subject: [lists] [admin] I'm so confused... <g>
In-Reply-To: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <16306.59339.786996.166171@afghan.dogpound>

Kenny Tilton writes:
 > I did it once, not sure how...better write this stuff down.
 > 
 > I am using WinSCP3 to upload files for FTP access. I am being asked for 
 > a session password. I have tried leaving it blank, did not work. 
 > 
 > And do I use SCP or SFTP or whatever as the mode in WinSCP3?
 > 
 > thx, kt

I don't use Windows much, but when I do I use Putty's SCP client (they
have an sftp as well

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html

the scp program works from a shell the same way as Linux scp
-- 
(incf *yankees-world-series-losses*)



From nikodemus at random-state.net  Thu Nov 13 07:28:06 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:28:06 +0200
Subject: [admin] I'm so confused... <g>
In-Reply-To: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
References: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20031113072806.GA703@random-state.net>

On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 07:38:54PM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:

> I did it once, not sure how...better write this stuff down.

I you do write this down, it might make a good addition to cl.net FAQ
-- it currenly assumes a unix-platform of some sort, and could hence
use more info for Windows users.

> And do I use SCP or SFTP or whatever as the mode in WinSCP3?

SCP as a protocol at least should work. 

The password is your Common-lisp.net password.

If you add your ssh public key to
common-lisp.net:/home/ktilton/.ssh/authorized_keys, and run ssh-agent
you don't even need to give a password at all.

I can't tranlate this to your tools, but here's more detail:

-----
1) Generate the public/private keypair (unless you already have one):

$ ssh-keygen -t dsa -f samplekey
Generating public/private dsa key pair.
Enter passphrase (empty for no passphrase): 
Enter same passphrase again: 
Your identification has been saved in samplekey.
Your public key has been saved in samplekey.pub.
The key fingerprint is:
c6:95:71:d7:17:19:1a:04:53:98:68:a6:bc:da:44:c7 demoss at rhino

-----
2) Add the contents of samplekey.pub to common-lisp.net:~/.ssh/authorized_keys

$ cat samplekey.pub 
ssh-dss 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 demoss at rhino

$ ssh nsiivola at common-lisp.net

Welcome to common-lisp.net!  

No building or CVS/RAM intensive tasks.  Direct questions and
suggestions to admin at common-lisp.net.  Thanks!

Erik.

No mail.
Last login: Thu Nov 13 02:16:08 2003 from cs78136074.pp.htv.fi
[~]
nsiivola at common-lisp$ echo 'ssh-dss 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 demoss at rhino' >> .ssh/authorized_keys

-----
3) Tell ssh-agent about the new key. (This assumes that ssh-agent is already 
   running.)

nsiivola at common-lisp$ exit
logout
Connection to common-lisp.net closed.

Enter passphrase for samplekey: 
Identity added: samplekey (samplekey)

----- 
4) Done! Now you should be able to do passwordless commits,
   uploads, and whatnot. The way this works: when you make the ssh connection
   (which underlies scp and sftp as well) the ssh-daemon on common-lisp.net
   sends you a challenge encrypted with you public key. The ssh-agent running 
   on your machine decrypts it with your private key + passphrase
   pair, and send the response.

  For the long run you probably want to set ssh-agent to run automatically 
  when you login on your computer.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From anthony at ventimiglia.org  Thu Nov 13 12:58:37 2003
From: anthony at ventimiglia.org (Anthony Ventimiglia)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:58:37 -0500
Subject: [lists] Re: [admin] I'm so confused... <g>
In-Reply-To: <20031113072806.GA703@random-state.net>
References: <3FB2D29E.8030700@nyc.rr.com>
	<20031113072806.GA703@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <16307.32765.594612.916534@afghan.dogpound>

Nikodemus Siivola writes:
 > On Wed, Nov 12, 2003 at 07:38:54PM -0500, Kenny Tilton wrote:
 > 
 > > I did it once, not sure how...better write this stuff down.
 > 
 > I you do write this down, it might make a good addition to cl.net FAQ
 > -- it currenly assumes a unix-platform of some sort, and could hence
 > use more info for Windows users.
 > 

One option for windows users is to install cygwin.

-- 
(incf *yankees-world-series-losses*)



From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 14:57:15 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:57:15 -0500
Subject: [admin] Applying for net-nittin-syslog
Message-ID: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>

I would like to apply for net-nittin-syslog, a Common Lisp interface to
syslog (only tested under Linux) via foreign-function call (thanks to
UFFI); patches for UDP are greatfully accepted.

License: MIT.

I ripped log.lisp out of ODCL and added ASDF system, conditions and some
other small "fixes".  Should work on any platform UFFI works on but only
tested for CMUCL and SBCL.

Erik.



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Thu Nov 13 15:23:54 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:23:54 +0100
Subject: [admin] Applying for net-nittin-syslog
In-Reply-To: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>
References: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzn0b0waut.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> I would like to apply for net-nittin-syslog, a Common Lisp interface to
> syslog (only tested under Linux) via foreign-function call (thanks to
> UFFI); patches for UDP are greatfully accepted.
> 
> License: MIT.
> 
> I ripped log.lisp out of ODCL and added ASDF system, conditions and some
> other small "fixes".  Should work on any platform UFFI works on but only
> tested for CMUCL and SBCL.

Sounds great (aproved). Can you just do that (rip log.lisp out and
republish it)?

Regards,
        Mario.




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Thu Nov 13 15:30:11 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:30:11 +0200
Subject: [admin] Applying for net-nittin-syslog
In-Reply-To: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>
References: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031113153011.GE703@random-state.net>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 09:57:15AM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> I would like to apply for net-nittin-syslog, a Common Lisp interface to
> syslog (only tested under Linux) via foreign-function call (thanks to
> UFFI); patches for UDP are greatfully accepted.
> 
> License: MIT.

Approved. Are you sure you're not drinking too 
much coffee these days? ;)

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus

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From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 15:31:42 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 10:31:42 -0500
Subject: [admin] Applying for net-nittin-syslog
In-Reply-To: <mailman.511.1068737203.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Mario
	Mommer's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:23:54 +0100")
References: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.511.1068737203.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87n0b05lpd.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Sounds great (aproved). Can you just do that (rip log.lisp out and
> republish it)?

As long as the license permits it, sure.  I guess, looking a bit closer,
the ODCL license is more like BSD.  But no big difference.

Erik.



From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 18:13:23 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:13:23 -0500
Subject: [admin] Applying for net-nittin-syslog
In-Reply-To: <mailman.530.1068742069.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Nikodemus
	Siivola's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 17:30:11 +0200")
References: <874qx871v8.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.530.1068742069.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <871xsc16ik.fsf@prium.net>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:

> Approved. Are you sure you're not drinking too much coffee these days? 
> ;)

No.  :) I don't know what's up.  I have even more half-done libraries
right here in my ~/dev directory (oracle and Linux-PAM) that I may
release soonish if I can finish them.

Erik.



From root at common-lisp.net  Thu Nov 13 16:19:09 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:19:09 -0500
Subject: [admin] added hyperspec; owned by eenge
Message-ID: <E1AKKBZ-0003xt-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.13.11.19.



From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 16:32:30 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:32:30 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
Message-ID: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>

Apparently the name is too long to be a valid Linux groupname so I had
to shorten it down.  Hopefully this will not have pissed any one off.
I'll probably do the same with net-nittin-syslog if it is approved.

Erik.



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Thu Nov 13 18:45:27 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:45:27 +0100
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
References: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzoevg2jlk.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> Apparently the name is too long to be a valid Linux groupname so I had
> to shorten it down.  Hopefully this will not have pissed any one off.
> I'll probably do the same with net-nittin-syslog if it is approved.

Erik, the problem is not anyone pissed off, just that there are now
two things called the hyperspec that, although related, are not
equal.

Besides, beware of the trademark! I think that this new name is
unacceptable.

Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 18:56:21 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:56:21 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <mailman.543.1068749291.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Mario
	Mommer's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 19:45:27 +0100")
References: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.543.1068749291.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87smksyu5m.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Erik, the problem is not anyone pissed off, just that there are now
> two things called the hyperspec that, although related, are not equal.

Ok, very good point.

> Besides, beware of the trademark! I think that this new name is
> unacceptable.

Oj, didn't think of that.  What could I call it?  hslookup?

Erik.



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Thu Nov 13 19:05:11 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:05:11 +0100
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <87smksyu5m.fsf@prium.net>
References: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.543.1068749291.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87smksyu5m.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzk7642ioo.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:
> > Besides, beware of the trademark! I think that this new name is
> > unacceptable.
> 
> Oj, didn't think of that.  What could I call it?  hslookup?

Yes, I think that would be ok. Google returns (not NIL) for hslookup,
but it seems to be no danger.

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 13 19:22:53 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:22:53 -0500
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <mailman.548.1068750995.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Mario
	Mommer's message of "Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:05:11 +0100")
References: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.543.1068749291.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87smksyu5m.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.548.1068750995.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87oevgysxe.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Yes, I think that would be ok. Google returns (not NIL) for hslookup,
> but it seems to be no danger.

I didn't feel comfortable waiting so I went a head and changed it to
hyperspec-lookup.  I think that will be ok as I see hyperspec.el etc on
my filesystem.  Is hyperspec-lookup ok with you?

Erik.



From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Thu Nov 13 19:45:54 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:45:54 +0100
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <87oevgysxe.fsf@prium.net>
References: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.543.1068749291.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87smksyu5m.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.548.1068750995.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87oevgysxe.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzbrrg2gst.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:
> 
> > Yes, I think that would be ok. Google returns (not NIL) for hslookup,
> > but it seems to be no danger.
> 
> I didn't feel comfortable waiting so I went a head and changed it to
> hyperspec-lookup.  I think that will be ok as I see hyperspec.el etc on
> my filesystem.  Is hyperspec-lookup ok with you?

With me personally yes, but I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know if (tm)
issues are out of the world like this. My intuition tells me that
naming a file somesuch has a different degree of relevance for such
things than a project name...

Regards,
        Mario.




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Thu Nov 13 23:42:55 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 01:42:55 +0200
Subject: [admin] net-nittin-hyperspec -> hyperspec
In-Reply-To: <87oevgysxe.fsf@prium.net>
References: <8765ho1b6p.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.543.1068749291.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87smksyu5m.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.548.1068750995.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
	<87oevgysxe.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031113234254.GH703@random-state.net>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:22:53PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> I didn't feel comfortable waiting so I went a head and changed it to
> hyperspec-lookup.  I think that will be ok as I see hyperspec.el etc on
> my filesystem.  Is hyperspec-lookup ok with you?

Fine with me. Also, looking at LispWorks site I see that "Common Lisp
Hyperspec" is trademarked, not Hyperspec.

IANAL, but:

 * Yes, trademarks need to be defended in order for them to remain.

 * This is why very often you see it mentioned the Foo is a registered
   trademark of Foobar Co., and use of it should not be construed as a
   challenge or infringement.

 * Since hypersec-lookup *refers* to the "Common Lisp Hyperspec" I
   cannot for the life of me see how it could be considered a
   challenge of the trademark. But add a small-print disclaimer, and
   there really should be no worries.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From root at common-lisp.net  Thu Nov 13 18:32:07 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 13:32:07 -0500
Subject: [admin] added cl-syslog; owned by eenge
Message-ID: <E1AKMGF-0003Lx-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.13.13.32.



From root at common-lisp.net  Thu Nov 13 19:09:48 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 14:09:48 -0500
Subject: [admin] added hyperspec-lookup; owned by eenge
Message-ID: <E1AKMqi-00082O-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.13.14.09.



From nikodemus at random-state.net  Fri Nov 14 18:41:32 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:41:32 +0200
Subject: [admin] Application: Hyperdoc
Message-ID: <20031114184131.GA1737@random-state.net>

I'm applying hosting for Hyperdoc project.

Hyperdoc is a documentation tool that maps Lisp symbols to URI's.
It uses hyperspec-lookup for MOP and CL symbols, and provides a simple
way for library authors to add similar facilities for their packages.

A draft version is available at:

 http://random-state.net/files/hyperdoc-draft.tar.gz

The tarball also contains a hackish and incomplete patch to Slime that
makes it use Hyperdoc instead of hyperspec.el for documentation
lookups.

Hyperdoc is licensed under MIT-style license.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Mon Nov 17 08:14:00 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:14:00 +0100
Subject: [admin] Application: Hyperdoc
In-Reply-To: <20031114184131.GA1737@random-state.net>
References: <20031114184131.GA1737@random-state.net>
Message-ID: <fzbrrbpg3b.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:
> I'm applying hosting for Hyperdoc project.

Cool stuff!

I approve.

Regards,
        Mario.




From eenge at prium.net  Fri Nov 14 19:01:54 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 14:01:54 -0500
Subject: [admin] Application: Hyperdoc
In-Reply-To: <mailman.591.1068836297.3422.admin@common-lisp.net> (Nikodemus
	Siivola's message of "Fri, 14 Nov 2003 20:41:32 +0200")
References: <mailman.591.1068836297.3422.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87n0ayydst.fsf@prium.net>

Nikodemus Siivola <nikodemus at random-state.net> writes:

> I'm applying hosting for Hyperdoc project.

I approve.

Erik.



From root at common-lisp.net  Mon Nov 17 13:51:47 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 08:51:47 -0500
Subject: [admin] added hyperdoc; owned by nsiivola
Message-ID: <E1ALjn9-0000iZ-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.17.08.51.



From tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU  Thu Nov 20 20:26:54 2003
From: tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:26:54 -0800
Subject: [admin] DNS glitches
Message-ID: <16317.9102.996664.356092@famine.OCF.Berkeley.EDU>

I can now see common-lisp.net again, but DNS query fails on
www.common-lisp.net.  You might have a configuration problem.

-- 
           /|_     .-----------------------.                        
         ,'  .\  / | No to Imperialist war |                        
     ,--'    _,'   | Wage class war!       |                        
    /       /      `-----------------------'                        
   (   -.  |                               
   |     ) |                               
  (`-.  '--.)                              
   `. )----'                               



From eenge at prium.net  Thu Nov 20 20:31:47 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:31:47 -0500
Subject: [admin] DNS glitches
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1069360009.20290.admin@common-lisp.net> (Thomas F.
	Burdick's message of "Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:26:54 -0800")
References: <mailman.1.1069360009.20290.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <874qwysrws.fsf@prium.net>

"Thomas F. Burdick" <tfb at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> writes:

> I can now see common-lisp.net again, but DNS query fails on
> www.common-lisp.net.  You might have a configuration problem.

Seems to work fine from here.  What does:

  dig @ns1c.johncompanies.com www.common-lisp.net

or

  host www.common-lisp.net

tell you?

Erik.



From mb at bese.it  Sat Nov 22 14:45:08 2003
From: mb at bese.it (Marco Baringer)
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 15:45:08 +0100
Subject: [admin] what to do with uncommon web?
Message-ID: <m2k75so423.fsf@bese.it>


I want to request that a new project be created on cl.net:

Project Name: UnCommon Web (UCW)
Maintainer: Marco Baringer
Description: A Common Lisp web application development framework.
License: BSD

however, I realize that I already have a project (bese) on cl.net
where I can keep all my open source code, so why do I want UCW to be
apart? I'm not really sure, I do think that, conceptually, it is an
independent project, however, what would i (as the only user and
developer) gain from this? Only extra administrative work.

so consider this a project request, but I'd like to hear what others
think i should do.

-- 
-Marco
Ring the bells that still can ring.
Forget your perfect offering.
There is a crack in everything.
That's how the light gets in.
     -Leonard Cohen




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Sun Nov 23 14:48:18 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:48:18 +0200
Subject: [admin] what to do with uncommon web?
In-Reply-To: <m2k75so423.fsf@bese.it>
References: <m2k75so423.fsf@bese.it>
Message-ID: <20031123144817.GA764@random-state.net>

On Sat, Nov 22, 2003 at 03:45:08PM +0100, Marco Baringer wrote:

> Project Name: UnCommon Web (UCW)
> Maintainer: Marco Baringer
> Description: A Common Lisp web application development framework.
> License: BSD

I approve.

 -

Personally I think that separate projects can/should be so also on the
admistrative level. From my own experience the overhead is neglible,
provided that there is a reasonable infra in place.

 -

OTOH, I'm been wondering if it might make sense to have a "scratch" or
"misc" project on Common-lisp.net as well, where all developers would
be made members automatically: to provide a communal playground for
experiments and snippets that might eventually mature into separate
projects.

Just a thought.

In retrospect hyperdoc (for example) could probably have lived (and
still live for a while) in scratch.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From nikodemus at random-state.net  Mon Nov 24 09:32:18 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:32:18 +0200
Subject: [admin] test, please ignore
Message-ID: <20031124093218.GA703@random-state.net>

test

Sorry,

 -- Nikodemus
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From root at common-lisp.net  Mon Nov 24 14:49:17 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:49:17 -0500
Subject: [admin] added bayescl; owned by aventimiglia
Message-ID: <E1AOI1d-0000Ck-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.24.09.49.



From root at common-lisp.net  Mon Nov 24 14:54:38 2003
From: root at common-lisp.net (root)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:54:38 -0500
Subject: [admin] added ucw; owned by mbaringer
Message-ID: <E1AOI6o-0000dA-00@common-lisp.net>

Add successful at 2003.11.24.09.54.



From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov 24 17:05:34 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 12:05:34 -0500
Subject: [admin] Project state-machine?
Message-ID: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>

After playing around with regular expressions in my rfc2822 project it
was clear than I needed a different approach.  I figured I'd give plain
'ol state-machines a go.  I've now done so and the library is much
cleaner and easier to debug because of it and my question is thus: I
have, of course, made the state-machine bits an independent library.  It
is about 44K including documentation.  Does it warrant its own project?
It would be nice to get some speed-heads in on this and make sure it's
as lean and mean as it can be.

Example run from example.lisp:

  * (state-machine::zeros-and-ones "010102101" t)
  Current state: UNKNOWN-STATE
   Data: (010102101)
   Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
  Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
   Data: (10102101 . T)
   Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
  Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
   Data: (10102101 . T)
   Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
  Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
   Data: (0102101 . T)
   Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
  Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
   Data: (102101 . T)
   Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
  Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
   Data: (02101 . T)
   Next state: END-STATE
  Current state: END-STATE
   Data: (2101)
   Next state: NIL
  NIL
  * 
  
Erik.


From mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de  Mon Nov 24 17:45:51 2003
From: mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de (Mario Mommer)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:45:51 +0100
Subject: [admin] Project state-machine?
In-Reply-To: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
References: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <fzd6bhhd80.fsf@cupid.igpm.rwth-aachen.de>

Erik Enge <eenge at prium.net> writes:
> After playing around with regular expressions in my rfc2822 project it
> was clear than I needed a different approach.  I figured I'd give plain
> 'ol state-machines a go.  I've now done so and the library is much
> cleaner and easier to debug because of it and my question is thus: I
> have, of course, made the state-machine bits an independent library.  It
> is about 44K including documentation.  Does it warrant its own
> project?

That is hard to say. I don't really know. But I like the idea of
having a large standard lib of smaller pieces from where you can take
what you need - as long as this does not imply dependency hell. I
don't know if that is possible, however.

> It would be nice to get some speed-heads in on this and make sure it's
> as lean and mean as it can be.

Let it roar :)

> Example run from example.lisp:
> 
>   * (state-machine::zeros-and-ones "010102101" t)
>   Current state: UNKNOWN-STATE
>    Data: (010102101)
>    Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
>   Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
>    Data: (10102101 . T)
>    Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
>   Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
>    Data: (10102101 . T)
>    Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
>   Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
>    Data: (0102101 . T)
>    Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
>   Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ONE
>    Data: (102101 . T)
>    Next state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
>   Current state: WE-HAVE-A-ZERO
>    Data: (02101 . T)
>    Next state: END-STATE
>   Current state: END-STATE
>    Data: (2101)
>    Next state: NIL
>   NIL

Approved (bds/mit?)

regards,
        Mario.




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Tue Nov 25 06:31:55 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:31:55 +0200
Subject: [admin] Project state-machine?
In-Reply-To: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
References: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031125063155.GB703@random-state.net>

On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 12:05:34PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> cleaner and easier to debug because of it and my question is thus: I
> have, of course, made the state-machine bits an independent library.  It
> is about 44K including documentation.  Does it warrant its own project?

I think a good state-machine library would be pretty neat thing, but
as I mentioned to Erik on irc, I think in it's current form this is
probably on the lower bound of separate-projectness.

So, approved with some reservations unless Erik is persuaded
otherwise.

 -

We really should come up with a heuristic for separate projectness. I
tried to type one up off the cuff, but it's obviously too early in the
morning. ;)

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From nikodemus at random-state.net  Wed Nov 26 16:56:48 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 2003 18:56:48 +0200
Subject: [admin] Project state-machine?
In-Reply-To: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
References: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
Message-ID: <20031126165648.GA3270@random-state.net>

On Mon, Nov 24, 2003 at 12:05:34PM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> cleaner and easier to debug because of it and my question is thus: I
> have, of course, made the state-machine bits an independent library.  It
> is about 44K including documentation.  Does it warrant its own project?

I think a good state-machine library would be pretty neat thing, but
as I mentioned to Erik on irc, I think in it's current form this is
probably on the lower bound of separate-projectness.

So, approved with some reservations unless Erik is persuaded
otherwise.

We really should come up with a heuristic for separate projectness.

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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From eenge at prium.net  Mon Nov 24 18:38:07 2003
From: eenge at prium.net (Erik Enge)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 13:38:07 -0500
Subject: [admin] Project state-machine?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.96.1069696212.20290.admin@common-lisp.net> (Mario
	Mommer's message of "Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:45:51 +0100")
References: <87he0t7l41.fsf@prium.net>
	<mailman.96.1069696212.20290.admin@common-lisp.net>
Message-ID: <87d6bh7gts.fsf@prium.net>

Mario Mommer <mommer at igpm.rwth-aachen.de> writes:

> Approved (bds/mit?)

Sorry, I always forget.  MIT.

Erik.



From luke at bluetail.com  Fri Nov 28 21:40:07 2003
From: luke at bluetail.com (Luke Gorrie)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:40:07 -0000
Subject: [admin] SLIME CVS for gbyers
Message-ID: <lhhe0ouq74.fsf@dodo.bluetail.com>

Howdy guys,

Could you please hook up Gary Byers <gb at clozure.com> with CVS
commit access on SLIME?

Cheers,
Luke




From nikodemus at random-state.net  Sun Nov 30 15:43:51 2003
From: nikodemus at random-state.net (Nikodemus Siivola)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:43:51 +0200
Subject: [admin] Re: [Clump] Re: bayescl project at Common-Lisp.net: ??
In-Reply-To: <87llpyj6he.fsf@nittin.net>
References: <878ylygma1.fsf@plato.moon.paoloamoroso.it>
	<87llpyj6he.fsf@nittin.net>
Message-ID: <20031130154351.GB3646@random-state.net>

On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 09:06:37AM -0500, Erik Enge wrote:

> Good point, we shouldn't let this slide.  I've notified the owners of
> the projects without webpages.  Hopefully they will comply shortly.

I suggest that we require a paragraph's worth of description from new
projects -- something that will be automatically put on the project
index.html.

[ I'm resending this via .org, since the MX records still don't work
  for me... ]

Cheers,

 -- Nikodemus
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